[idolaspecus]

My first child is due any day now and I’ve been thinking a lot about the central problems presented in this article. But I don’t know what to do about them. Should I keep my son home with me, allocate mornings to academics and afternoons to more practical endeavors? Should I teach him to cook? To garden? To build cabinets? To train a dog? To do his taxes? Should I send him to public school but supplement his learning with what I believe he should learn, topics like statistics and probability and finance? Should I teach him Latin? JavaScript?

I personally feel like I am capable of providing an “agentic” education but I almost certainly won’t have the time nor the persuasive powers to convince a (hopefully) rebellious 7 year old that, say, grammar matters and gardening is dope. Seeking any suggestions.

[jkhdigital]

Hits close to home… had these exact thoughts a little over seven years ago. At one point I was convinced that sending my son to a public school would be child abuse… actually I still kinda feel that way, but I’ve softened my stance a bit.

I read up quite a bit on unschooling, which sounds great on paper but is probably only feasible when both parents are enthusiastically committed. Sudbury schools are probably the closest thing to unschooling without having to do it yourself, but there’s probably less than 100 such schools in the entire world.

One big realization I’ve had is that children really grow when their parents aren’t around. Schools may suppress agency, but so do parents. There’s a reason that all the stories in this article are about apprenticeships and first jobs—the outside world will always be a much richer source of new and unexpected interactions and discoveries than anything inside the home. Maybe that’s my suggestion: get your kid out of the house and around other trustworthy adults as much as possible. (I moved across the country to live near family just to make this happen)

[idolaspecus]

> One big realization I’ve had is that children really grow when their parents aren’t around. Schools may suppress agency, but so do parents.

This sounds like a good point, I'm going to try to keep it more in mind, thanks.

[dash2]

Sounds like the argument made by Lenore Skenazy and https://letgrow.org.

[jkhdigital]

Yeah man, Lenore Skenazy and Peter Gray have done a good job picking up right where John Holt and John Taylor Gatto left off.

[combatentropy]

You should let your child have lots and lots of freedom to do whatever he wants, even if that is often watching television or whatever. Ideally you would have a lot of outdoor places for him to roam --- whether that be a large amount of land that you live on or just a green neighborhood.

This is based on my own experience, because I was allowed to manage my free time. When I got out of school, I had a chore or two, but the rest of the evening was mine to manage. (I was expected to do my homework at some point, though, and make decent grades. In fact I made A's and B's.) But the rest of the time I watched about 2-3 hours of TV, drew a lot, jumped on the trampoline, and in general ran around outside (We lived on five acres).

My parents never sent me to summer camp. The summer was mine. They never made me take piano lessons or join the boy scouts. Nothing.

I graduated magna cum laude, started my own business (which failed) then pivoted to a completely different field (web programming) and taught myself everything, through books, blogs, etc. That was 15 years ago and professionally speaking, I lead a very stable life.

When I hear about today's children being shuttled from school to one extracurricular activity or another, where they have very little unstructured time, I scream on the inside on their behalf. I've known a handful of adults who were homeschooled, and most of them have turned out very poorly. They basically are walking time bombs: quiet and obedient through childhood, then they get out of the house and explode.

As my mother wisely said, "Kids need to be kids." (We had a very strong religious teaching, however, in my household --- firm but not oppressive. I ascribe my own acceptance of that teaching as a key reason I did not just squander all that freedom on drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll. But most of all, I felt very, very loved and accepted as a person, even if I were to screw up royally.)

[theonething]

> I've known a handful of adults who were homeschooled, and most of them have turned out very poorly. They basically are walking time bombs: quiet and obedient through childhood, then they get out of the house and explode.

I don't doubt your account of a handful of adults, but the research seems to point to the opposite conclusion:

> Homeschooled children are taking part in the daily routines of their communities. They are certainly not isolated, in fact, they associate with— and feel close to—all sorts of people. Homeschooling parents . . . actively encourage their children to take advantage of social opportunities outside the family. Homeschooled children are acquiring the rules of behavior and systems of beliefs and attitudes they need. They have good self-esteem and are likely to display fewer behavior problems than other children. They may be more socially mature and have better leadership skills than other children as well. And they appear to be functioning effectively as members of adult society. (Medlin, 2000, p. 119)

https://www.stetson.edu/artsci/psychology/media/medlin-socia...

[fellowniusmonk]

I know nearly innumerable homeschoolers, they regress to the mean like any other group, but they also have far more hyper successful outliers.

There are a number of people I know who transcended the station of their birth but I know a disproportionate number of homeschoolers who did from an early age per capita.

All bets are off if the homeschooler is insularly religious. Has a kid at a young age or they became "homeschooled" because they were kicked out of every regular school for extreme violence or other similar behavior.

[ativzzz]

Depends on the person. I spent every minute of free time I had playing video games as a kid. I had a lot of free time since my parents were very laid back and gave it to me. I wish my parents were more strict and forced me to do other things, literally anything else.

[brutusborn]

My limited experience shows that a good way to influence children is to lead by example, and build on previous knowledge to provide context.

Using gardening as an example, choose a fruit or vegetable your child likes, then go with them to a store and buy seeds / trees / whatever. Then get them to help you plant it and look after it. Children love harvest time, the excitement is palpable.

If you have chickens you can feed them wheat. If your child likes bread then you can show the child how to turn wheat into bread.

The key is not to force things. Monkey see, monkey do. If my nephews see me doing yoga, suddenly they are all trying their best to copy me.

For programming, I am not sure. But i think the best way is to start with a simple language that can alter something visual, so that there is clear cause/effect.

I'd love to hear any other examples people have!

[idolaspecus]

This is basically how I hope to tackle the problem. I’d like to try and fill my own life with more practical endeavors and then weave in intentional/intellectual/thoughtful moments where we (me and kid) consider whatever slightly more abstract principles are in effect at that particular time. I’m having a hard time believing this is not much much much easier said than done though.

[brutusborn]

Your intuition is correct: raising and teaching children is a difficult skill to master, much easier said than done.

But if you have patience and determination the difficulties will be manageable. The love one feels for ones child is a deep well to draw from during frustrating or difficult times.

[roland35]

Parent here with 2 boys, ages 6 and 2 :). I have some good news for you if you're worried about planning! I was wondering the same things before they were born, but it turns out that children will develop their own interests and are much happier digging into what they are interested in. The best thing you can do is help support their interests! They will also see what you are doing and want to follow along too.

Don't worry too much about planning things out, because the any grand parenting plan will go out the window once they baby arrives haha

[theandrewbailey]

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

[IncRnd]

> but I almost certainly won’t have the time nor the persuasive powers to convince a (hopefully) rebellious 7 year old that, say, grammar matters and gardening is dope. Seeking any suggestions.

Mine are grown up and have moved away, but I do have a suggestion. It's okay, and may be the best method, to just say, "grammar matters and gardening is dope," then stop talking while you gauge their reaction or listen to what they say. If all you ever do is talk with them, they will listen and talk with you.

[jkhdigital]

> then stop talking

This is so damn true… having a son has taught me that my words matter a lot, so choose them wisely and say no more than is necessary.

[BLKNSLVR]

I've always (attempted to) live my life as if my words matter to everyone. I dislike speaking for the sake of conversation because it tends to lead me to say things I don't fully mean or intend.

This came about from possibly taking this old saying too seriously:

"90% of what people say is untrue"

My childhood self didn't want to be the sort of person with that kind of pointless conversation. Combine that with something I picked up more recently:

"People don't remember what you said, people remember how you made them feel".

Choose your words carefully. Words are cheap, but their effect can be expensive.

[aarongray]

I was fortunate enough to have two parents that let me stay at home and homeschool until high school, then they sent me off to learn from others. They taught me how to do almost all of those things in your list as the opportunities presented themselves. Did we disagree? Yes. Did I hate gardening a lot of the time? Yes. But then my parents would play video games with me after we were done which I loved. We learned how to give and take, how to do what each other enjoyed, and how to do life together. Now that I'm in my thirties, working from home, and have a little family of my own, I'm trying to replicate my childhood as much as I can. I think you have a great dream, I say go for it!

[Ma8ee]

I’ve put both my kids in preschool from about the time they turned one. I can teach my kids a lot in my own, but what I can’t give them is plenty of training interacting with other kids. They might not be able to read when they are four this way, but all those things are trivial in comparison to learn a bit later.

[swader999]

They'll follow you around and do all those things with you if you do it. My six year old mows the lawn since he could push it. Each kids has a raised bed they tend to each summer. School is ok for socialization but a lot has to happen at home in terms of this agency thing.

[idolaspecus]

My intuition tells me this is the crux of the matter: If I spend my time in the kitchen and the garden and wrenching and cutting and repairing, then my kid will be drawn to like activities. I hope I can behave accordingly and I hope you're right!

[swader999]

Most important is just to play with them. You can't force it on them.