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by mitcheme 5449 days ago
nocipher, his analysis of women's creativity is wrong because we know women have created art throughout history. We don't actually know how much art, unfortunately, because historically, the bulk of women's creative expression was not considered "real art". It wasn't signed by its creator, and its recipients didn't treat it with that extra level of care to prevent it from being destroyed. That's a big issue when you're talking largely about decorative textiles and pottery. Then there are the women who posed as men to have their art be treated more seriously. Again, we don't actually know how many women have done this, we only know from some discovered examples that it's been done for quite a long time. So to say with confidence that women don't create art is wrong. We know there have been some, and many art historians suspect there have been much more than we give credit for because of the above factors. Like many 'innate' folks, he's made no effort to account for cultural factors before declaring things innate. My personal thought on this is that if women, like men, didn't have that creative drive, they would not have bothered to create in an environment where they were untrained in art, sometimes discouraged from doing it, and given no credit at all for their work. The only motivation I can see there is the pure joy of creating. Sure, you might need a pot, but there's no need to paint it with a scene from your local mythology. And I don't think anyone can come up with a materialistic reason that you might need a novel or a bit of poetry.

His discussion on relative sex drives (sorry, typo) is spurious because, again, he doesn't separate this from cultural factors like what actions we define as being "normal" sex, and how the sexes relate to each other. The Mosuo, for example, does things differently. Instead of monogamy or polygyny, they have two-way polyamory. Young women are given a private place to bring lovers back to. She can bring home as many lovers as she likes, and the men can go to as many women's homes as they are invited to. If she wants, she invites him back, and if he wants, he goes. I remember reading that at one time, it wasn't unusual for a woman to have fifty partners in her lifetime. Women are under no economic or social pressure to invite lots of men over, so to me, it's really odd that this would be common if women didn't enjoy sex. Mosuo women these days have fewer partners, because they have access to a lot of western media and culture. Some girls are now afraid that if they invite over too many boys, they will be considered "slutty", and this is an image problem that the Mosuo as a whole are having. To me, that looks like proof that women are being discouraged from having as much sex as they'd like to have, thanks to social pressures that are inherent in our own culture. Or at least better proof than saying, "it happens, so it's genetic".

1 comments

Interestingly, the Mosuo have a different model of the family than most of the rest of humans. In Mosuo culture, men take care of their nieces and nephews, not their sons and daughters. (I had to look this up on Wikipedia to verify it, but I guess it was true based on your description of their sexual relationships - such an arrangement is not stable otherwise.)

So, two points. One, this kind of culture is the exception for humans. I think there are a handful of other cultures that operate this way, but it's still the exception. When an overwhelmingly large percentage of a species behaves in a particular way, we tend to attribute that to instinct rather than random chance - even though there are exceptional cases. I think it's also valid to ask why this kind of culture is not the dominant culture. It's possible that these cultures get out-competed by cultures where men are usually responsible for their own children.

Second, the author did not claim that women don't like sex or have no sex drive. Not enjoying sex was not a part of his argument. His argument was that, in aggregate, men have a stronger sex drive. That claim is consistent with Masuo women having up to 50 partners in their life.

I think you're mistaken about the model of family that "most of the rest of humans" have. There is way more variation than arguments like this tend to give credit to. Traditional Hawaii, everyone your age is a sibling and everyone your parents' age is a parent. Other parts of traditional China, the family group you belong to depends on your father entirely. Your biological mother is not related to you, since her father was part of a different family. Parts of Native America, your mother's sisters are also your mothers, and your father's brothers are your fathers, but your father's sisters and mother's brothers are aunts and uncles. These are just basic systems of reckoning, it gets quite a bit more complicated once you look at the actual living arrangements that go with them (where do couples go to live, where do the children live, how do marriages or whatever other sexual arrangements work). By population, nowadays there are fewer that vary from the western norm, but if you count up what was going on pre-globalization, we are not in the majority. These different family systems are fading away because of modern-day western influence only, and I think that might have a lot more to do with the military (and more recently, economic power) than the custody arrangements. You can't simply point to everything western and say, "this is why we won".

I don't believe it is consistent. Based on the Masuo you can see that women will have less sex if they start being treated like western women. You can't look at how women behave in western culture and use them as proof that women have a lower sex drive, because we know that evidence has been tainted.

So, taking your pristine example of the Masuo, we can just compare how many partners women had to how many men had...

OH WAIT!

You only said 'women had 50 on average. That's a lot. Clearly they have sex drive.'

No one is debating whether they have sex drive. The article stated they had lower RELATIVE drive. You cannot refute this point with only statistics about women. Your facts are meaningless without the counterpoint male statistics from the Masuo.

I apologize for my slight snarkyness, but you are blatantly ignoring key truths about the article in an attempt to argue your point. Especially as that has already been pointed out to you and you continued to ignore it, I am somewhat irked.

Interesting points. And I agree that the reduction in other systems of family are a result of military and economic power. But the article is proposing a theory for how the Western military and economic powers were able to outcompete the others - for how such an imbalance in military and economic power was able to develop. I agree that you can't point to everything and say "this is why," but I don't believe he has done that. He provided extensive arguments.

Masuo women may have sex with less partners, but has it been confirmed that they have less sex?