[jbluepolarbear]

How is this entitlement? Dining at a restaurant is a luxury, if I’m going to spend my money on a luxury, I’m going to choose an experience that is safe, enjoyable, and to my interests. Why are you so upset? Why do you feel that the conditions in place are acceptable? Personally, I grew up quite poor and never got to go to restaurants. It wasn’t until I started making a little money in my late 20s that I could start to go to restaurants as a way to remove myself from my current stressful life and just unwind for a bit. For me restaurant dining is an experience and the experience offered at present isn’t appealing.

[dagw]

Dining at a restaurant is a luxury

I think this is the crux of the difference of opinions. Dining at a restaurant is different things to different people at different times. I love the 'luxury' dining experience with all that it entails, will happily pay a lot of money to experience it, and I cannot wait to do that again. And in those cases, yes I expect that all aspects of the dining experience live up to that. But just as often I'm just hungry and want a halfway decent burger and beer served to me as quickly and efficiently as possible.

For most people and in most situations, dining at a restaurant isn't a luxury experience, it's just a way to get food.

[OJFord]

For all people in all situations in the UK, dining at a restaurant is subject to VAT; it is therefore considered a luxury (in the sense of being pleasant but not necessary [0]) as opposed to essential 'way to get food'.

It may seem a bit ridiculous to appeal to VAT - there are fairly 'ordinary' goods that are nevertheless deemed inessential and taxable after all - but I just wanted a way to say that I think GP's use of 'luxury' is being misinterpreted as a desire for fine dining; as I read it, I agree, it's discretional expenditure which has my discretion when I think I'll enjoy it. If I don't, why should I?

I don't think that's any more entitled than the converse view here that we have some sort of moral obligation to personally (and not through taxes) support restaurateurs through limited opening.

[0] - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/luxury

[bregma]

It smacks of entitlement when dining at a restaurant is considered basic necessity and preparing your own meals is considered a luxury. Think about history. Think about the vast, vast majority of people on earth. Consider just how entitled one must be to have the help prepare your basic necessities of life.

[dagw]

By that argument, indoor plumbing and safe running water can also be considered luxuries. Which, while true, is rather reductivist.

And if we want to talk history, having food made for you by other rather than making it yourself is not a new thing. Having a servant or a wife/mother/grandmother making you dinner was far more common in the past than it is now. I'd probably guess that more people know how to cook and cook their own food today, than at just about any other time in history

[mkr-hn]

It's remarkable how much those restaurants they uncovered in Pompeii resemble modern versions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermopolium

[atatatat]

Stirring Mac and cheese or warming a Hot Pocket is not on the same level as roasting a pig and such, but I agree with the local point you're making.

[Werewolf255]

These are all just spinning food products around or on a heat source, sounds like we could just abstract and reuse that module without coding up a behavior for each 'new' cooking technique.

[Broken_Hippo]

Fast food has been a staple of life since antiquity: For centuries, folks went to the baker to get bread, since home kitchen facilities were very limited. Women have been stuck in home kitchens for eons, with male family members not learning even basic skills unless they were employed as cooks or bakers.

I think we've been depending on others for food prep for a very, very long time.

[bregma]

> Women have been stuck in home kitchens for eons ... we've been depending on others for food prep for a very, very long time.

Did the slightly more than half the population throughout history also have someone else cook for them too? A woman's woman perhaps?

No, I'm not buying any argument that says a person is not privileged to have someone provide for them just because they consider the provisioner to be a lesser being like a woman or a slave. Quite the contrary in fact: I consider that a reinforcing argument for a privileged existence.

[dagw]

A woman's woman perhaps?

Servants and maids where much more common in the past than now, especially among the middle class. Also it was more common to have several generations living under the same roof, so 1-2 people would often be preparing meals for 6-12 people. Today it is much more likely that you have 1-2 people preparing food for 1-4 people.

I strongly suspect that the proportion of people eating a meal they cooked themselves is almost certainly higher now than at virtually any point in history.

[jbluepolarbear]

That’s extremely sexist. I for one am an excellent cook, I’m not a women, and I haven’t been employed for my cooking abilities. I learned to cook because I wasn’t able to experience restaurants. I was tired of the bland boring food my parents made. I started cooking our meals and I would copy from tv shows, magazines. I wanted better food, but couldn’t afford to have it prepared for me so I learned a skill. Any restaurant food is considered a luxury to me. I aggressively budgeted so that I could start going to restaurants as an adult. My cooking abilities only got better when I was able to taste the food that I’d been mimicking for so long. For me a normal family meal cost $20, a single value meal at McDonald’s is $10. So for my family a meal at McDonald’s would be $40 minimum. That increases as the greatly as you transition into sit down meals; where a meal is $15 per person and that’s before tip so $80. How are these not luxury expenses? 1 meal at a restaurant cost as much as 4 at home and those home meals will also produce leftovers for lunches. Before COVID I would eat out 1 times a week with my family and 1-2 times a week for lunch. At that frequency it’s still a lot of money and I have always treated it as a luxury expense that is part food and part entertainment.

[prewett]

Recounting historical realities is sexist? How does one talk about history then, since history is chock-full of inequalities? And might there be some decent, non-sexist reasons why women cooked and men didn't, consistently, over large periods of time and many different cultures?

[imwillofficial]

“That’s extremely sexist.”

No it isn’t, GP was recounting historical norms. Get off your high horse.

[Broken_Hippo]

I'm the poster you responded to, and I think you've taken some things out of context. Of course there is sexism. I was talking about history, and history has a lot more sexism than a lot of western, more "liberal" countries retain - and this is a fairly recent development.

[chalst]

In developing countries, the urban poor frequently don't live in places with cooking facilities and have to eat prepared food.

[imwillofficial]

When you’re poor, dining out is a luxury. Like GP, I grew up poor and still think of something like AppleBees as frivolous and expensive. I like to have an enjoyable experience as well. The hygiene theater has really reduced that experience. Menus being an unexpected casualty of the pandemic.

[jiofih]

> why do you feel like the conditions in place are acceptable?

“Acceptable”? To whom? This is why you sound entitled. The alternative is not dining out. You make it sound like restaurants are letting you down or should try harder. The word “acceptable” has no place in this conversation.

It’s fine that you don’t want to go out to restaurants right now. But you’re complaining about how inconvenient it is for you like there is no underlying reason for things to be in this state. Businesses ate also victims of this pandemic.

All of this makes me upset because it sounds extremely insensitive. The world is mourning millions of dead and you’re grumpy about your restaurant experience being ruined. Might be just your wording but one would expect a bit more empathy.

[bruce343434]

I disagree. You are allowed to have an opinion about something you would pay for. In fact you are allowed to have an opinion period. That doesn't make you entitled.

[Broken_Hippo]

It isn't the opinion that makes them sound entitled.

The base opinion is: I haven't gone to such places since Covid began because the experience is less enjoyable and more stressful.

But it is said with contempt for the businesses and regulations, which the businesses cannot do much about. Even where it is open, they have to think about their employees and the risk they put them in. Not only that, but folks have been dining in tents and under wooden awnings - in booths even - enjoyably for decades. Where I am at, before covid hit they had heating and blankets outdoors so the restaurants could extend the outdoor seating season. The poster acts like it something horrible thrust upon them, when the fact is that they simply aren't a fan.

[blindmute]

If people liked that sort of thing it would have been the business model before it was forced to be. The restaurants have declined in quality. Sometimes this is their fault, and sometimes it isn't. Either way, no restaurant is entitled to customers. A lot of places near me have decided that masks are still required, despite the state saying they aren't. In response, I have decided not to eat there. There's no entitlement either way, just the market.

[bruce343434]

How can you eat with a mask on? Or are you referring tot non-restaurant places?

[blindmute]

They require a mask at the door and at any time when not seated. Some places even require you to put the mask back on when the waiter comes to the table. It's all just theater, and I won't be a part of it.

[practice9]

> To whom? This is why you sound entitled.

> you’re complaining

> All of this makes me upset because it sounds extremely insensitive.

> The world is mourning millions of dead

> a bit more empathy.

You're attacking a person for their honest opinion while knowing almost nothing about them, their life etc. In fact you sound angry and insensitive, please keep your emotions under control

[jiofih]

Nice way to turn this into a personal attack. I have nothing against this opinion, and said as much above (I might even share it). His attitude and wording is entitled and disrespectful, like this is an inconvenience to him and not the result of worldwide events.

[0xbadcafebee]

It's not entitlement. You are entitled to express your opinion that dining in restaurants has become something you no longer enjoy. I think it's worth noting since their existence depends upon pleasing customers.

People forget that restaurants are a really modern invention. They were first introduced in France at the turn of the 19th century to provide more than just a way to order one type of food. The main reason they exist is the service, ambiance, and menu. Until "nice" restaurants came about, there were pretty much just taverns and inns, which were not renowned for their dining experience, and in most locales there was just one or maybe two, and the food selection wasn't great.

[jamal-kumar]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/archaeologists-excav... might want to consider a wider scope of recent archaeological discoveries. I wonder what it was like outside of Europe during this time period too