[esyir]

You attacked probably the weakest part of that entire statement.

Your claim that it's a subject for post graduate study/research might have been true at one point, but many of it's principles have been leaking into multiple levels of society, and in my opinion, to the detriment of society.

Firstly, the focus on storytelling over data that is a hallmark of CRT. This has clearly metastasized. Note the prevalence of personal narratives, and the use of personal narrative to explicitly supplant other sources of truth that's common in today's conveyances.

Then look at intersectionality. The US is literally fractured along identity lines, with people literally pulling that separation and interaction of the various subidentitites to war with one another. Look at the slow march towards "male gays are oppressors" that you see on LBGT communities AND the mainstream media [1].

How punctuality and other such professional merits are now just white people's oppression [2] and that any acceptance of such is considered internalized racism?

Reparations and separation (CHAZ, general talk) anyone? Also common themes in academic CRT.

It's pretty clear to me, building from the principles of CRT, and the common themes in their papers have punctured that academic bubble into the mainstream. We're hearing about it now because of this. I certainly don't like it.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/white-gay-privilege-ex...

[2] https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_bias_of_professionalism_...

[cbsmith]

> You attacked probably the weakest part of that entire statement.

I wasn't intending to attack.

> Your claim that it's a subject for post graduate study/research might have been true at one point, but many of it's principles have been leaking into multiple levels of society, and in my opinion, to the detriment of society.

It's not my claim, and the "principles" you're talking about aren't CRT principles.

> Firstly, the focus on storytelling over data that is a hallmark of CRT. This has clearly metastasized. Note the prevalence of personal narratives, and the use of personal narrative to explicitly supplant other sources of truth that's common in today's conveyances.

The idea of a narrative being an important aspect of history education goes back... essentially forever. It doesn't trace back to CRT. It's a core principle of CRT because it predates it... and of course there's the whole thing about certain stories being excluded from our narratives.

> How punctuality and other such professional merits are now just white people's oppression [2] and that any acceptance of such is considered internalized racism?

The narrative on punctuality that is currently making the rounds is deliberately misframing the context. There's a reality (that has been studied) about how racism colours the application and enforcement things like punctuality. It's not that punctuality is intrinsically a tool for oppression, but rather how systemic racism plays out through things as trivial as punctuality.

There may indeed be a lot of the thinking here that has percolated out "into the mainstream". That's kind of the point of these things. You would expect that most ideas would get around throughout society. But no one worries about String Theory being taught in grade school, and the idea of actively trying to ensure it doesn't somehow slip in to the curriculum in grade school is laughable. If you can get students to the mental headspace where you can even begin to examine CRT, you're doing an amazing job as an educator, and I kind of don't care what you proceed to expose them to at that point.

Do you remember all the concern about CRT in 2018? All the brawls at boards of education? The 1100 times that it was mentioned on FOX News in just the first half of that year? Yeah, me neither. Yet somehow, I'm supposed to believe a narrative that there's been some massive nationwide covert shift in school boards, school administrations, and teachers that was executed without any turn over, public policy, etc.? I'm sorry. It's a lot easier to believe that the narrative about CRT is propaganda that plays a role in a larger, otherwise unrelated, political landscape.

> I certainly don't like it.

...and that's the crux of it. We're used to the propaganda we've been fed, and the idea of it changing in anyway is just really upsetting.

[esyir]

>I wasn't intending to attack.

Your argument was targeted there, avoiding the core argument. That's all I meant by that.

>It's not my claim, and the "principles" you're talking about aren't CRT principles.

They're common themes in CRT, to the point where they're basically all that's talked about.

>The idea of a narrative being an important aspect of history education goes back... essentially forever. It doesn't trace back to CRT. It's a core principle of CRT because it predates it... and of course there's the whole thing about certain stories being excluded from our narratives.

Critical theory is distinct for it's deliberate supplanting of other forms of truth with the extremely flexible "lived experience". This is one of it's hallmarks, that "lived experience" takes precedence over all, and it shows in their argumentation style.

>The narrative on punctuality that is currently making the rounds is deliberately misframing the context. There's a reality (that has been studied) about how racism colours the application and enforcement things like punctuality. It's not that punctuality is intrinsically a tool for oppression, but rather how systemic racism plays out through things as trivial as punctuality.

See, that's where I reject that entire premise. It's like saying academic competency as a value is discrimination since there are cultures that prioritize, and thus do better at it. Furthermore, I've seen explicit claims that punctuality, as well as professionalism, or even mathematical competence is racism. It's not misframing the context if it's literally done in this way, on a regular basis.

>Do you remember all the concern about CRT in 2018? All the brawls at boards of education? The 1100 times that it was mentioned on FOX News in just the first half of that year? Yeah, me neither. Yet somehow, I'm supposed to believe a narrative that there's been some massive nationwide covert shift in school boards, school administrations, and teachers that was executed without any turn over, public policy, etc.? I'm sorry. It's a lot easier to believe that the narrative about CRT is propaganda that plays a role in a larger, otherwise unrelated, political landscape.

I've been following for far longer than that. Sokal's well known 1996 hoax was a fantastic example, and the later grievance studies hoaxes, amongst other critiques, do not give me a good impression of their field, nor of their soundness of theory. And, taking a leaf from critical theory's book, my "lived experience' is that that I've seen those same themes have been percolating through the system bit by bit to create the current virulent cult.

That you think that I see this is a recent phenomenon and am just obviously misinformed, or that you immediately jump to "you clearly get your news from fox propaganda" just comes off as extremely condescending to me. Hell, I don't even reside in the US, and my news consumption was largely left-aligned for the time where I consumed mass-market news.

The Jews were once seen as the evil oppressive cabal, whose influence and "corruption" seeped everywhere. It's the same strategy of defining your enemy that has stood the test of time, but this time it comes dressed in different clothes.

[cbsmith]

> That you think that I see this is a recent phenomenon and am just obviously misinformed, or that you immediately jump to "you clearly get your news from fox propaganda" just comes off as extremely condescending to me.

When I asked you about CRT, you referred to "the media about CRT", rather than CRT itself. Forgive me for thinking that meant the media was the source of your understanding. I don't think you "clearly get your news from FOX propaganda". I mentioned FOX News as a specific example of a dramatic and obvious shift, as evidence of there being propaganda, not any assumption about where you get your news from. For all I know you get your news from carrier pigeons, but that's beside the point.

[esyir]

Apologies on that one, I did correct (and elaborate on) that bit in an earlier comment, but it's pretty easy to miss (Or it might have been a different thread). I'm referring to the use of CRT by the media (not the reporting of CRT by the media), as well as the gradual encroachment of CRT themes into everyday communities and other such discussion spaces.

[cbsmith]

Thanks for the apology. Much appreciated.

[ttt0]

> Do you remember all the concern about CRT in 2018?

I do actually. I don't really watch news, so I'm not sure what they were saying, but I do remember the concerns. I got interested in this topic in like 2015-2016, if not earlier.

You can take The College Fix as example. It's a news website specifically focused on education and they were talking about it for a long time. Think of them what you will, it's beside the point, but the concerns about education were undeniably there.

Come on, when was the first time all of you heard about the concept of white privilege? I'm willing to bet that for most people here who haven't been living under a rock it was way before 2019.

[cbsmith]

> Think of them what you will, it's beside the point, but the concerns about education were undeniably there.

Yes, as I said, people have be studying this for decades... and then suddenly, in one year, there is a broad belief that there's a need to pass legislation about it across the country.