[nimbleal]

Yes, but as mentioned elsewhere weight alone would do little to solve this issue. Males would still dominate.

So presumably you include other factors — but then you are simply dividing by ability. You could conceivably attempt to divide by innate ability (theoretically allowing competitors to compete against one another based on nurture, not nature) but that would be impossible to do fairly or in a way that would make sense to audiences.

[a-and]

> but then you are simply dividing by ability

While I understand the sentiment, but I think we need to speak of skill vs physical factors. The division of weightlifters in weight classes is to deal with the latter rather than the former.

Similarly - WADA does this already by banning doping. PEDs don't make you a high-skill athlete, they enhance physical capabilities (stronger, faster recovery etc).

Laurel Hubbard is in an unfortunately unique position, where she's at a natural advantage due to higher testosterone levels earlier in life.

It might be impossible to end up with a fair division, but I don't think "no division" is a good answer.

[trhway]

>impossible to do fairly

we're at HN - run PCA and clustering on the totality of athletes' results and biological data for the last N decades with end result being the groups based on identified parameters similar to boxing/wrestling weight groups.

>that would make sense to audiences.

we're already in situation which is harder and harder to make sense. Putting it on the firm basis of scientific analysis is the only way to move forward which would avoid all the pitfalls we're going to hit otherwise.

[jefftk]

What happens if you run PCA and it groups trans women in with men?

[trhway]

trans women by their nature already defy the classic notions of sex and gender (i.e. that classic match of software and hardware), so why does it matter whether they would get grouped with the men (i suppose you meant the classic notion of "men"), trans men, women or with any cross boundaries cutting group as long as the competition is honest (i.e. similar blood oxygen carrying capabilities with similar muscle mass with similar bone density or whatever PCA would point to)?

Also, if trans women are supposed to go to women competition, does it mean that trans men are supposed to go to men competition? Wouldn't that mean pretty much condemning them to having no chance of winning from the start in the most sports where sheer mass, power, etc. play major role?

Anyway, if we don't put it on the firm scientific basis today, i can see how tomorrow a number of male athletes form China and Russia would suddenly start to feel like they are women, may be would take some hormones to satisfy some doubts/requirements (giving the doping already going on i don't see any obstacles here), and that will be the end of female sports.