[seaorg]

Yes, it is bad. Cultures that discourage “rude” comments invariably have more corruption than cultures that encourage frankness. Take the Netherlands for example. People say they are rude. But really, it’s just that Americans can’t tell the difference between objective honesty and malicious insults.

People who say what they mean and call it like they see it are brave. They don’t cash in tomorrow for a little convenience today.

[cortesoft]

Are you actually arguing that we should always communicate every thought that comes to our head? That we should never choose to keep a thought to ourselves?

This does not seem like a good idea in practice. There are lots of thoughts we should keep to ourselves. If you see a friend with a new haircut, and you think it looks ugly, should you immediately just blurt out “hey, your new haircut looks awful”? Why? Just because it is how you feel doesn’t mean you need to tell everyone.

I find the people who insist on “telling it like it is” and who are “just being honest” are often just being assholes.

[ben_w]

For what it’s worth, “radical honesty” does exactly that. Best done with the consent of those you’re being radically honest with, because without that one definitely comes across as a dick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_honesty

[ishiz]

> If you see a friend with a new haircut, and you think it looks ugly, should you immediately just blurt out “hey, your new haircut looks awful”? Why?

My friends would expect me to say this, yes, and I have the same expectation. If everyone thought my haircut looked bad, I would want to know.

[Zak]

> If you see a friend with a new haircut, and you think it looks ugly, should you immediately just blurt out “hey, your new haircut looks awful”?

There's a middle ground: you can be honest if asked, but not volunteer negative opinions.

[seaorg]

Yeah except that countries that lean closer to what you’re talking about are universally better than countries that lean in the direction of politeness. Lower corruption, happier by all metrics and so on. Should you let your friend walk around town and become a laughing stock of the community just because you were too afraid to tell him the guy at Supercuts must have had a hangover? Like I said, you’re trading in tomorrow for today. Trading in the big picture for short term gain or convenience. Ultimately it’s a net loss and it’s societal poison that, if left unchecked, leads to corruption and stagnation.

The emotional reaction to harmless words is not an intrinsic aspect of human biology. If someone says mean things in a malicious attempt to hurt you, it is natural to be emotionally disturbed or upset at the fact that someone has malicious intent toward you. But in some cultures you can tell someone their haircut is messed up and they understand that you don’t have malicious intent. It’s a cultural artifact, albeit a widespread one. It tripped me up for a long time too because I was born in a country that doesn’t know any better.

[longtimegoogler]

Any evidence of this claim? It hasn't been my experience. For instance, I believe that politeness is more valued in Asian countries like Japan and Korea and I would disagree with your assertion.

Anecdotally, I've found Russians to be the frankest and corruption is rampant there, so I am not sure what the basis of your assertion is.

Politeness is about respecting others. You can communicate difficult things while still being polite.

[seaorg]

Yes, Japan. Where people literally work themselves to death and where the truth goes to die a brutal death. Consider the time that Japanese pilots crashed a plane because the senior pilot was mistaken and his subordinates were afraid of correcting him. The only reason Japanese society functions, if you could call such an unhappy society functional, is because the core tenants of its culture are quietly overridden from time to time. Any system where people never say what they mean and where seniority trumps the truth is insane, full stop.

And let’s not forget Korea. Korea where they have this little problem called “the highest suicide rate in the developed world.” And it’s no cake walk over there. Inequality is insane. What else would you expect from a place where people insanely ignore what is right in front of them for a little short-term gain?

Do frank, direct cultures like Denmark and the Netherlands suffer from these problems? You tell me.

And Russia? Are you kidding? They are completely a culture of respect. Everything is based on respect. It’s one of the most emotion-based societies in the developed world. They will happily overlook little niggling and inconvenient truths for the sake of respect or perceived virtue, as evidenced by their former system of government. Try learning something about Russia… I remember the founder of Scihub had a parasite named after her out of respect by an American biologist or something. She was super offended. Russia is perhaps one of the worst countries in that respect. Almost anything will upset a Russian, let alone the truth. It’s one of the most “never say anything even remotely offensive or else they will be upset” countries out there. The fact that you don’t know this really reflects poorly on your argument. You cite your “experience” but then don’t appear to have much.

And yes I realize she’s not Russian, there’s a huge amount of overlap in their cultures.

[freddie_mercury]

No, it isn't invariable.

Singapore is less corrupt than the Netherlands.

Hong Kong is less corrupt than Austria and Belgium and Estonia.

Japan has less corruption than Poland.

Your claim seems based on cherry picking.

[seaorg]

Well some of those are good points but not really. Out of the hundreds of countries with cultures of silence and respect, you can count the “successful” ones on one hand. Semantics? Corruption isn’t the whole picture either. See my other comment. I just say corruption because it’s a pretty good metric of whether or not the machinery of society is functional and rational.

Imagine a spectrum where on one side you can’t say anything that would offend someone or put your immediate interests at risk, and on the other side you blurt out the truth even if you don’t want to.

In the former, corruption is inevitable. Nothing gets called out. In the latter, corruption is impossible. You obviously want to be closer to the latter. Just because you pull up some examples where they are pretty close but not all the way doesn’t really say anything about my argument. But thank you for calling out my hyperbolic use of the word “invariably,” like a good Scandinavian.

[type0]

> Americans can’t tell the difference between objective honesty and malicious insults.

Sometimes it is both when you are speaking with the Dutch.