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by major505 1828 days ago
I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...
6 comments

I think these days inter partes review is the way these trolls are slain.
Not familiar with this idea, I searched and found this

https://www.gearhartlaw.com/2016-9-8-a-way-to-defeat-a-troll...

IIUC, inter partes review is a relatively recent (9 y.o.?) patent law practice that allows 3rd parties to challenge patents directly to the patent office any time between patent award and expiry. I had thought there was only a short period this could be done after award of the patent.

Yeah but it costs 20k
It's more than that. The fee to request the IPR is $19,000, plus $375 for each claim in excess of 20. If the USPTO decides to institute the IPR, the post-institution fee is $22,500, plus $750 for each claim in excess of 20. [0] Attorney's fees will be far more than these amounts.

[0] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=37y1.0.1.3.12#se...

Funny how Obama pushed this as a good thing for small inventors.
Right? The AIA made it easier and cheaper (*) for big companies to invalidate the patents of small inventors who try to assert their patents against them. It reduced the amount of money that big companies will pay to license a patent because the threat of an infringement lawsuit became less valuable. It literally took value from small inventors and handed it to big business.

(*) Edit: An IPR may seem expensive (~$500k is average), but if successful it is much cheaper than winning a patent infringement lawsuit ($millions).

You'd think it should be a law against racketeering (something like RICO). Some tried to use that against patent trolls, but it didn't work.
Giving away the idea to drug lord might work.

When troll will try to annoy the new owner - the troll will be dealt with in the way he deserves.

We just need a “well duh!” Doctrine on the patent. If you can ask and answer it as an intern interview question (e.g. how to cache a QR code database)
The patents already include that, they are meant to be only given on things that are not standard practice or obvious to any competent proffesional. Just software patents fucked it up
As long as the patent is valid there is nothing racketeering about it.
Had a professor who wat was at big company. Forget which. IBM came in with a list of patents that were being violated. Professor went through the list and managed to document fully how each one didn’t apply to company. One of which was for pythagorean theorem.

They had another meeting to go over it with IBM to show results. Not impressed IBM said fine you don’t violate those. We have a hundred thousand more patents.

Are you buying a license for these, or should we go find more that you “violate”

Company purchased a license.

This was 20 years ago.

That is basically just a rephrasing of, "This is an awfully nice store you got here. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it."
I've always wondered if sublicensing was a way to get around this. Instead of owning the core technology itself, set up an offshore holding company to own the technology rights, then "license" them out. The main company probably can't be sued since they have a legal contract for the tech and if they go after the holding company, fine, the parent company can then "license" tech from another, similar holding company.
If you compare patents to weapons, the above is like privateering. For big companies there is also MAD analogy.
I read that story quite some time ago. The company was Sun Microsystems.

Edit: A link to that story: https://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/044.html

Oh nice. I was thinking sun. But wasn’t sure.
Why wouldn't they just go "fine, let's deal with your next batch in court, good luck keeping them" ?
Because it was probably more expensive (and risky) to go to court and spend a ton of money on lawyers than just pay the license and be done with it.
But if the licence is that cheap, they're showing their hand, the difference between a protection scheme and IP protection here is incredibly murky. Even if you didn't aim to help others not be bullied around, going for a settlement seems the smarter option.
You can assume in the vast majority of cases patent trolls don't have valid patents. And if even if they are "valid", the patent system is so messed up, that they have to be invalid in reality.

Trolls' method is exactly racketeering because it's extorting money using threat tactics. "You don't want something worse happening to you? Better pay up XYZ amount!". It's not going get much more classic protection racket than that. Except they threaten not with beating you up, but with you spending millions on court cases. I'd say trolls getting jail time for this garbage should be a good medicine for them.

>You can assume in the vast majority of cases patent trolls don't have valid patents.

Right, but law actually presumes they are valid. Which is why its tough to go after a troll for asserting a valid patent.

Without knowing the content of the patents(merely that they are valid) - would you be able to differentiate between a patent troll and someone with a great patent that wants their hard work licensed instead of taken for free?
Who is taking anything for free? Do you think people go read through the patent database to get product ideas? If I create a product and bring it to market without any knowledge of your patent, why should I pay you just because you invented it earlier and then sat on it?
It's not _just_ because you invented it earlier, you also have to disclose it in a way that makes it workable. The disclosure is supposed to drive innovation and use of innovations; that's the patent deal, the monopoly is "paid" for with disclosure.

Aside, in the UK there's compulsory licensing (UKPA Section 48x to prevent people from inventing stuff and refusing to license it (at reasonable terms), too.

I don't think any judge is going to care much if you say you didn't read their patent before infringing on their patent.
Can you counter sue? Absolutely!

But, as I tell my kids: Just because you're right doesn't mean you won't go bankrupt proving it in a court of law.

the court can remain unconvinced longer than you can stay solvent
It's usually cheaper to settle than to go to court. A company I worked for got hit (apparently using TLS violates their patent. Even though it's the browser that initiated the connection). Company simply paid up because it was cheaper.
Unfortunately this is one of those instances where looking out for oneself (in a business sense) does more harm to society than eating the costs and fighting the battle.

IANASBO (I am not a Small Business Owner) so I can't say I wouldn't necessarily do any different, sadly. But I like to think I would.

perhaps patenting the entire process of, or a critical component of patent trolling, would be feasible
lotnet.com Lawsuits from Patent Assertion Entities (PAEs, sometimes called “patent trolls”) can be a drain on resources for any company. With software a primary PAE target, and software becoming an integral part of all industries — putting nearly all companies at risk of being sued.

That’s why leading companies have come together to form a collaborative, voluntary community to reduce this risk – one that grows in importance as the economic environment becomes increasingly uncertain.