[bootstrapper101]

Peter does a thread here every few months. So I want to share a cautionary tale about Immigration lawyers in general and Peter in particular.

I had extensive immigration experience in US, where I did many filings. Worked with many different immigration lawyers.

In that end with your immigration you are dealing less with the law aspects and more with the paperwork filling which is more clerical work.

Things that I realized:

There are three types of lawyers:

1. With big firms like Berry Appleman, Fragomen etc. Very conservative in their opinion. Will not be responsive. Have good portals to enter information to help with your application.

2. Single lawyer operation like Peter Roberts: Very aggressive. Will give advice not really inline with the law. Very disorganized so you will spend a lot of time filling documents. Will make many mistakes.

3. 4-5 lawyer firms: These are the best in my opinion. They will pay more attention, have more experience and have decent process.

Issues with immigration filings:

When things are clear and you keep getting approved - things are great.

However as soon as things get complicated and you get rejections - now it will have negative impact not only on your future filings in US but also other countries. Many countries ask in their immigration application if you ever get rejected in any Visa application. Five Eye countries share all the non immigration paperwork with each other.

Issues with Peter:

He was a mix of Snake oil salesman and Fly by night operator.

He would consistently give advice which was very hackish. That works when you are trying out ideas for your business, but can have major consequences when you are dealing with the government. His advice was not in the letter and spirit of the law. He completely messed up my otherwise stellar immigration situation. I later checked his advice with multiple immigration lawyers and every single one of them said that Peter was wrong!

But the worst thing was that as soon as my application was rejected, he stopped all communications with me. He wouldn't reply to my email and stopped returning my calls. I had to find some other lawyer to clear the mess. It hurt a lot more, because I was in a very vulnerable situation in my personal life and Peter knew that!

I also know others who have bad experience with him. People probably don't speak out due to fear and not wanting to rock the boat!

My advice to all founders: Be careful when you deal with immigration filings. Find someone competent and professional!

[dang]

Speaking generally: People need to remember that there are two or more sides to every story. It's impossible to evaluate any of this accurately in the context of an internet thread, and since it's a no-win situation for the person or organization being accused, there's no way for the full picture to emerge.

Speaking specifically: Peter handled my personal case with consummate professionalism and effectiveness, and I've heard many YC startups speak highly of what he's been able to do for them. YC has a long track record of helping non-US startups extremely effectively with their immigration challenges, and Peter has been a big part of that for something like 6 or 7 years. Given that track record, your story sounds particularly one-sided to me, although certainly no one bats 100 and I'm sorry that you had a negative experience.

I find it hard to believe that he would "give advice not really inline with the law"—that's a charge of professional misconduct and would be a bombshell if true. Internet comments, on the other hand, are cheap and make it easy to gunsling. Readers love drama and everyone loves an underdog, which is a vulnerability routinely exploited by disgruntled commenters. It's not easy for the other side to defend themselves (let alone answer name-calling like "snake-oil salesman"); and it's basically impossible for anybody else to tell what actually happened. You describe your immigration situation as "stellar"; whether an objective observer would agree with that is something the rest of us can only be agnostic about.

[bootstrapper101]

I agree that this story is one sided. If I wanted a closure with Peter, it would be in some kind of legal setting. But I have moved on.

I just want to use this opportunity to let fellow entrepreneurs realize the importance of picking the right immigration legal help and to not letting things get messed up on the government front

Many people on this thread are thinking of getting some kind of immigration status in US but either are outside US or are within US on H1/L1.

In hindsight I wish I had never applied for a US Green Card. My immigration situation has complications largely because Peter's bad advice.

The worst part was when he stopped responding as soon as he realized that he has screwed up my situation beyond repair. I was in a particular vulnerable situation on the personal front at that time, so it made it even worse.

If you look at my past threads, I am in a much better situation now. As I said, my sole reason of these posts is to help others not get into a bad situation like I did.

[danSimmons42]

I didn't realize until now that you are an immigrant, but this actually makes a lot of sense. You seem to consistently delete comments that show any hint of sympathy for the American worker. And more broadly speaking, you seem to moderate any comment or content that doesn't tow the liberal party line. Canadians can really be the worst sometimes, and it is shame that you were able to weasel your way into this position that has a lot of power. Hopefully 4chan is right, and the day of the rake is near.

[dang]

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure I don't "consistently delete comments that show any hint of sympathy for the American worker". You needn't take my word for it though: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

The significant word in your comment (besides "weasel", which was a good one) is "seem". These perceptions are notoriously, hopelessly, even absolutely conditioned by the political passions of the perceiver. It's quite remarkable; I would not have believed that any social phenomenon could be so mechanically consistent as this one turns out to be.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[danSimmons42]

Thank you for the links. Is there a way to see what comments/users have been shadowbanned?

[ianhawes]

I work in the immigration industry. Not as a lawyer, but I own a business that is used extensively by both large and small immigration firms (ImmiTranslate).

I will say that some of your characterizations are accurate, and others are not. I've not worked with Peter before so I won't comment on him specifically, but your assertions about law vs. clerical work is spot on. I will add my own input as well.

Immigration attorneys in the US are similar to hacking groups, minus the illegality. Good hackers have their own 0day exploits. Good attorneys have their own techniques for obtaining legal status in the US. Dealing with USCIS/ICE/EOIR/State is akin to bureaucratic hacking. Anticipating what the Government agencies want to see and hear in your petition is their exploit. Finding the appropriate supplementary evidence is their payload.

I don't think your assertion of solo attys vs medium sized firms is accurate. In my experience, solo immigration attorneys focus on the easy to win cases (like K-1 visas and AOS). This segment of the market is diminishing because of the fact that it _is_ mostly clerical work.

Likewise, the big firms are simply too big and expensive to want to approach one-off cases. They deal with the FAANGs and Fortune 500 companies.

For those reading this, consider that everyone has exceptionally complex circumstances that surround their immigration status and legal options here in the US. Obviously Peter cannot comment on it and OP has not shared that much information.

[bootstrapper101]

Most people on this forum are asking about potentially EB-1, O1, E2, Entrepreneurship parole etc. These applications can get very complicated.

If it was a simple H1 application I think most solo practitioners would be fine.

I stand by my comment that you are better off with a mid size (4-10 lawyers) firm for more complicated cases.

Bigger firms are too bureaucratic and they want to make money with bulk H1 and L1 from bigger corps.

Single lawyer setups don't have strong processes and enough variety of expertise. Given that they are solo practitioners, there will be less checks and balances if the sole owner is giving bad or illegal advice.

In a 4-5 lawyer setup, everyone's skin is in the game. They are less likely to sell you snake oil.

In my case money was not an issue. Unfortunately I ended up choosing Peter because of YC's credibility ( he said that he is a YC advisor and their sole recommendation for immigration lawyers).

Many people here might wrongly believe that Peter is somehow a part of YC. So felt it might be a good idea to post my experience here!

[macksd]

> Dealing with USCIS/ICE/EOIR/State is akin to bureaucratic hacking. Anticipating what the Government agencies want to see and hear in your petition is their exploit.

Unfortunately this is very true of many other areas of the government. Reading through all of the paperwork and possessing all of the practical skills was insufficient for me to get approval to build a cabin. I couldn't figure out how to get anything past them. A couple of well-connected friends chimed in and boom - I got my permit.

[midnightclubbed]

This is a great insight. Thank you!

Most of the immigration process is simple paperwork as far as I can tell. Certainly simpler than filing US taxes. But as you note it is all in the details, and a good lawyer will know how to ensure applications are successful (and will tell you if you are unlikely to be successful).

[ma2rten]

Can you be more specific? What advice did he give you that was wrong? Was there any reason he stopped communication other than the application being rejected?

[chrisseaton]

> Peter Roberts: Very aggressive. Will give advice not really inline with the law.

Wow that seems like an extraordinarily strong and serious professional accusation to make.

[swombat]

The review of the author's experience with Peter is a much stronger accusation, really. Did you read the post to the end?

[dang]

Not answering emails strikes me as a weaker charge than professional misconduct, but the more important point is that no internet comment should count as a "strong" accusation, unless by "strong" you mean "intense". Such comments are always—basically without exception, in my experience—carefully crafted to leave out any detail that would reveal the other side of the story. We all know how dramatically different the story appears when such details trickle out later, as occasionally they do; and we all know how by then, the dramafest spotlight has usually moved on.

[chrisseaton]

> The review of the author's experience with Peter is a much stronger accusation, really.

That's what I'm referring to. What did you think I was referring to?

> Did you read the post to the end?

Please don't accuse people of not reading things.

[joering2]

If true he should be praised for coming forward. I had six immigration lawyers that were totally screwing things up. At some point when doing first time meetup of a new lawyer I wanted to hire, I embarrassed him knowing more about basic Immigration laws that he did!

Majority of lawyers really dont care. They run a caging operation. If you call their office and you are not client, you will speak with head of the food chain, many times owner himself. One you get signed in, bye bye! Thats usually last time you hear from him/her - from now on you dealing with assistants. And immigration laws not only change often, but the USCIS will not comply with their own laws on many occasion. I dealt with enough government on average to tell you Immigration is sort of different because they serve aliens that have less rights than US citizens. For example IRS will treat you more seriously because on average 99% of their “clients” are USC, capable of calling their representative and stirring the pot. Average USCIS “client” is usally less powerful foreign citizen with maybe $500 savings. I was lucky to immigrate with nice saving cushion and took USCIS all the way to BIA (Board of Immigration) and basically embarrassed the whole local USCIS office, where BIA wrote completely shredding response, pointing out USCIS abuse of authority, lack of professionalism, and outright rudeness. In fact, even though my lawyer screw up so bad that there was no choice than actually start all over (with less chances of approval since now I have this spoiled milk spilled all over my alien number), the BIA went out of their way and told local office you will do X,Y,Z and if no issues arise you will approve this file. Something that's typically unheard of. Dealing with USCIS for 12 years to the cost of close to $100,000 I probably should have wrote a book by now. But its much worse than you can imagine, I can tell you this much.

Bottom line: get yourself local lawyer, small office type lawyer, preferably that worked in gov before. Believe me or not, when it comes to USCIS, its all about who you know. My last screwup was trying to get an update on the file (typical stalling technique is for USCIS to neither approve you nor deny, so you are in limbo for as long as YOU have the guts, time, energy AND money to continue "harassing" them for what's your right per INA) for close to two years.. meanwhile I went to this lawyer that used to work for the immigration office himself, and during our 30 minute call, he already emailed his buddy at USCIS and got back the ANSWER other lawyers couldn't get for years (!!).

[hluska]

If true, there are many better ways to deal with this than play forum hero. Law is a regulated profession and comments like this are almost invariably complete fucking bullshit.

[joering2]

??

[hluska]

There are things called Law Societies or Bar Associations that are built to accept and investigate these types of complaints. That's the nature of regulated professions - there are places to complain and investigate.

[bootstrapper101]

Do I want others to benefit from my experience? Yes

Do I want to help fellow entrepreneurs avoid negative immigration consequences? Yes

Do I want Peter to lose his law license or get sanctioned? No. Even though I have specific proof which could get him at least sanctioned.

Do I care whether more or less business goes to Peter? Also no

His actions turned my life upside down. It took me years to fix things. Abandoning me after rejection was worse. He talked to me the day before rejection in a very positive discussion. After the rejection he didn't reply to any email nor returned any call. His paralegal kept responding to me.

I am not trying to be vindictive here.

I am just trying to help fellow entrepreneurs. I went with Peter based on his AMA. It ended up being a huge mistake in my case. Hope others can use my experience as a data point to do further due diligence!

[joering2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

[cowabunga1989]

Hi bootstrapper101, My friend showed me this thread and just serendipitously I saw this post by you. Is there anywhere I can dm you to dig deeper? I happened to be evaluating this firm and am concerned.

[bootstrapper101]

Even if you assume everything I said about Peter at face value, in the end it is just an anecdote. I know quite a few people who had a great experience with him. So make your own judgement call!

In my immigration journey, I worked with 8 different law firms for various applications, including big ones like Berry Appleman, Fragomen. So I have good experience dealing with lawyers across the spectrum.

If you have a straight forward case, almost any competent lawyer can do a good job. Maybe even Peter might work out for you. For a simple case, I would recommend working with a well recommended local lawyer. Because there are quite a few filings which need wet signature. It will logistically save you time, money and headache of not needing to Fedex things again and again.

If you have a complicated case, I would stay away from solo practitioners and instead choose a mid size firm.

A good place to start looking for good firms is US News national ranking for Immigration lawyers: https://bestlawfirms.usnews.com/search.aspx?practice_area_id...

Out of all the firms that I worked with, I liked Wolfsdorf Rosenthal LLP (https://wolfsdorf.com/) best. They are also Tier 1 in US News ranking. Though they have grown in size since I worked with them.

Talk to multiple firms, do your own due diligence. If someone isn't responding well and doesn't appreciate your business, while you are evaluating firms, it will be much worse after you have signed up!

[hluska]

Let’s see if I understand this. Correct me if I’m wrong!

There’s a highly trained and qualified professional willing to take six hours out of their Saturday to help, for free. You chose this time to be an asshole.

There are two sides to every story but at this point, if you told me the sky was blue, I’d ask for a citation.

Edit - Hey Peter, these AMAs always help me one hell of a lot. You’re loved. I hope you hear that constantly.

[midnightclubbed]

Yes it is great that Peter gives his time here but don't imagine this is for charity. Being on a forum like this (with hundreds of potential clients) is a great way to grow his business.

I had the misfortune of using a bad immigration lawyer (along with a group of colleagues) to do a company sponsored Green Card application. The lawyer wasted 2 years through incorrect paperwork and poor communication before we fired them and restarted from scratch with different (and great) lawyer. When you are working on a 6 year H1B visa the clock is constantly ticking to get Green Card paperwork correctly filed and through the system.

I have no comment on Peter's professional abilities or how he runs his company, but calling someone who had a bad experience an a*hole is very harsh. The poster took the time to issue a warning based on their personal experience, immigration issues can totally derail someones life so having the right lawyer is critical.

[hluska]

No, they’re an asshole and I'll happily stand by that.

You see, there are things called Law Societies or Bar Associations that are built to accept and investigate these types of complaints. That's the nature of regulated professions - there are places to complain and investigate. They take complaints like this very seriously and investigate them with almost unlimited power.

Public attacks like this are a sign that either the commenter doesn't have a clue how to deal with problems like this in a more professional way. Or the commenter does know, failed to make a case and has an axe to grind.

[bootstrapper101]

Well, sole reason Peter is doing this is to get more business.

My post has two parts. First part was tips related to choosing a firm and knowing what is at stake if things go wrong.

Second part specifically about my experience with Peter. It's an anecdote on internet. Take it for what you might.

I agree that I started the name calling for Peter which was the best characterization of my personal experience with him. You name called me where you had no idea about what really happened with me and how Peter actions completely turned my life upside down. Might be good to reflect on your own actions!

[meisel]

So all single-lawyer operations “will make many mistakes”? Seems like a broad accusation