[shakow]

> The idea that there was this cohesive concept of "The Orient" as a Mysterious Other, waiting to be settled or tamed by the righteous West

That's an interpretation I never heard. Here in France (and in Europe as far as I know), Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures. To make a crude comparison, it would be much closer to “weeaboos” (albeit larger in scope, ranging from Maghreb to Afghanistan) than to the White Man Burden.

Although there were a lot of cliches born there (the Turkish harems, the Arabian cheikhs, the wild and free Bedouins, the proud and fierce Afghan warrior, etc.), there was definitely no feeling of need of settling or taming, as the whole point was the fascination for these cultures that hadn't really seeped through Europe until then.

[smogcutter]

I think you’re talking past each other. Parent is referencing Edward Said, but mixing in an Americanism about “taming the frontier” that doesn’t really apply. Said’s talking more about colonialism.

> Orientalism is an artistic current from the 18th to the early 20th focused on taking inspiration from the faraway, exotic, attractive Eastern cultures.

You’re not wrong, but Said’s work really changed the way that movement is generally understood.

[shakow]

> Said’s work really changed the way that movement is generally understood.

With all due respect to Said, I'm not yet willing to accept the complete redefinition of a term well-anchored in European art history for over two centuries on the basis of a book by a single American scholar -- book which is, moreover, highly debated by other academics of the field.

[smogcutter]

Do you think that the usage in TFA that started this dumb thread was about art history?

Your original response to parent was “I haven’t heard this before, so it must be wrong”. That’s a very boring way to approach the world.

Now you’ve pivoted from saying the usage is unfamiliar to dismissing it as “highly debated by other academics in the field”, implying that you are familiar with it after all! Okay.

Anyway, what a weird hill to die on.

[shakow]

> “I haven’t heard this before, so it must be wrong”

It's rather that all of the definitions of orientalism I have been taught both at home, at school, and in the literature revolve about culture, all the uses of it I have witnessed talk about culture, I have read Salambo, Zadig, and other classics, I have visited museum filled to brim with European paintings from the period depicting odalisques, harems, bedouins, tuaregs, mosques, fantasia, Turkish baths, city drooling of sun on the Mediterranean, I have assisted to Les Indes Galantes, Der Entführung aus dem Serail and the Italian in Algiers, and the only mention I heard of Orientalism being used in this meaning comes from a few Americans, and a mention in the US wiki stating “Since the publication of Edward Said's Orientalism in 1978, much academic discourse has begun to use the term "Orientalism" to refer to a general patronizing Western attitude towards Middle Eastern, Asian, and North African societies”. So no, I don't intend, for now, to replace the semantic of this centennial word because of a controversial publication.

> implying that you are familiar with it after all!

Familiar with it, as “I just read the wiki page of the author, which is extremely critical against the book”.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Considering that all of Africa and parts of the Middle East were partitioned and colonised by the European powers in the late 19th century, and India had been colonised much earlier, and China had been pacified by the Opium Wars (and still hasn't forgiven the UK for those) I'm not sure how you can say there was no interest in settling or taming.

The artistic cliches were froth that made these distant locations somewhat comprehensible to home audiences. Not incidentally, they also sold them as investment opportunities and potential locations for personal commercial and military adventures - and occasionally artistic and erotic adventures too.

[shakow]

Because you're conflating a geopolitical current (colonialism & imperialism) with an artistic one (orientalism) -- in fact, the artistic current actually predates colonialism in the concerned geographical regions, with e.g. Ottoman art becoming fashionable in the 18th century or Antique Egypt fascinating Paris after Napoleon's expedition in the early 19th century.

Just like nowadays, exhibiting a taste for Vietnamese or Bengali culture doesn't imply that you are a staunch supporter of children's slavery, 19th century people fantasizing about lascivious odalisques and fierce Cheikhs or Byron writing about Transoxania doesn't have much to do with the Concessions harbours.

[FooBarBizBazz]

Good distinction. But that conflation is exactly the purpose of contemporary use of the word "orientalism". It makes it impossible for Westerners to engage with these cultures while maintaining social or aesthetic acceptability; intentionally, the only option left open is to sit down and shut up.