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by acituan 1835 days ago
> The older I get the less wisdom I find in any philosophy that means to teach how we should live and particularly how to avoid pain and unhappiness.

There are two limitations with this proposition. First; most of the useful "philosophies", by which you mean schools of philosophies, and by that we actually mean "wisdom traditions", have already been incorporated into many aspects of the mainstream culture that they are as invisible to us as the pair of glasses we wear. Participated in any Abrahamic religion? You've also made use of Stoicism. Done any CBT therapy? You have practiced being a stoic. Read Hamlet's "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so", you've heard Epictetus. Quoted the serenity prayer? Quoted one of the central Stoic maxims.

The second issue is parts of any doctrine that gives a didactic, algorithmic way of solving life's problems, are not the bits related to wisdom. Think it like the static data of any tradition, vs the executable bits, in which an on-the-fly heuristic needs to be run to actually approximate the optimal. Wisdom traditions only aim to sharpen the heuristic strategies, not to hand feed ready made solutions, because the problem space is inexhaustibly complex and the environment constantly changes.

The "should" statements you encounter in Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, or Epictetus's Enchiridion etc, are not the ready made answers you should take to heart. They are the example outputs that give you the perspective to train your own heuristic. It increases your chances to recognize the life inputs that Stoic optimizations can be applied to.

The core formulation of Stoicism is actually very simple, avoid agency ascription errors; don't take on anything you don't have control over, don't relinquish anything agency you do actually have. Constantly focus on what you can actually do, not the shoulds, oughts, would haves.

> Pain is useful.

Disease states exist, in which one is stuck in pain that is not useful. Chronic pain, phantom pain, chronic depression etc. They are pain states that have lost their utility.

> I saw perpetually and unconditionally happy people. In a mental asylum.

Likewise, this is a disease state too. Unconditionally happy people cannot survive "in the wild"; it is not adaptive or relevant to be happy in face of all life inputs. That is why mania is equally serious condition as depression, even though one feels more egosyntonic.

> The short of it is: nothing is good or bad, but things can be too much or too little. Where the line is depends or circumstances and is different every time. And the correct answer is mostly only available in hindsight if it is at all

Good or bad already implies too much or too little. E.g the original meaning of "sin" is missing the mark. It is the residual error we have anytime we apply our heuristics.

If the local optimal point was only available in hindsight though, we couldn't have survived as a species thus far (not saying we are missing some better optimum and we will definitely survive). But turns out our strategies have been good enough (and getting better) to make us pretty OK general problem solvers. If our heuristics was so low precision, we couldn't even talk and understand one another, which requires mentalizing the state of mind of the recipient.

2 comments

I've come to appreciate the enduring importance of "wisdom traditions" after (at some random time) seeking the etymology of Ubuntu (the operating system). The concept of humans acquiring their humanity through others resonated deeply despite coming from an alien to me culture.
> If the local optimal point was only available in hindsight though, we couldn't have survived as a species thus far

We didn't survive as a species thanks to life guiding philosophy or in general thanks to a conscious thinking process in which we tried to predict the future. When even our greatest people tried to do that it more often resulted in unpredicted results than not.

I can make a case for believing we can though. It is a most powerful motivator for action and association. So maybe the lesson is don't have a philosophy for yourself but have one for your would be followers?

> We didn't survive as a species thanks to life guiding philosophy or in general thanks to a conscious thinking process in which we tried to predict the future.

Not sure I understand you correctly here. Choosing to build shelters from the inevitable elements, storing food for the winter months, building traps to capture animals that may walk by at some point, etc... seem like crucial, conscious, predictive behaviors that increased odds of survival. Are you talking about this type of predictive decision making, or something else?

The second part of what I said is simply bad. Should have stopped at philosophy.
No worries! I agree in part with your original statement, which is why I was asking for more detail. As a society I think we have too much confidence in our predictions about macro events, especially ones involving human behavior. Even the simple examples I gave likely involved many unsuccessful predictions before landing on the ones that were reproducible, so in a way we were likely poor at predicting even those events (20/20 hindsight). It's certainly an interesting topic.

In a way, we do fail pretty often at predicting, but if the gold standard is every other organism's creative predictive ability (as opposed to common instinctual behavior), we're actually quite good :).

> We didn't survive as a species thanks to life guiding philosophy or in general thanks to a conscious thinking process in which we tried to predict the future

You couldn't be more wrong. Consciousness, inferential thinking, symbolic processing, they are all selected because they give a tremendous adaptive advantage. To claim otherwise would be at best to claim they are mere spandrels.

> I can make a case for believing we can though. It is a most powerful motivator for action and association.

Believing we have agency where we don't is actually the most powerful reason for burnout and depression. Stoicism gives a corrective suggestion; engage in a questioning process in order not to overestimate your agency, but also not to underestimate it; don't forgo the predictive power you do have. It calls you to reframe your life's problems in a way where you salience the information about the degree of agency you might or might not have. Notice how there is no ready made answers for you to consume.

> So maybe the lesson is don't have a philosophy for yourself but have one for your would be followers?

I think you're conflating philosophy with indoctrination or dogma. Philosophy literally means love of wisdom. Wisdom is not a collection of propositions or assertions, it is roughly a hyper-parameter tuning process of our heuristics. One does not become wise, because it is not a terminal position. One aspires to cultivate wisdom, i.e. to work on their hyper-parameters. Philosophy is the dedication to this process.