[zepto]

> There is no tangible difference between the acronyms USA and CIA. We have been sold to the devil, and we've made him our master.

What are you talking about? Every country has spy agencies and almost every country conducts covert operations.

[mc32]

No, Cuba never intervened in the politics of other countries or engaged in assassination in other countries or sent mercenaries to other countries or exported their ideology to other countries. Only bad countries did that. That's right Cuba did not send 4,000 troops to Syria to fight against Israel in the Yom Kippur war. They also probably didn't send troops into Somalia nor support the MIR and FPMR to destabilize Chile.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

Fidel Castro urged Russia to nuke the US during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

http://www.errolmorris.com/film/fow_transcript.html

>"Mr. President, I have three questions to you. Number one: did you know the nuclear warheads were there? Number two: if you did, would you have recommended to Khrushchev in the face of an U.S. attack that he use them? Number three: if he had used them, what would have happened to Cuba?"

He said, "Number one, I knew they were there. Number two, I would not have recommended to Khrushchev, I did recommend to Khrushchev that they be used. Number three, 'What would have happened to Cuba?' It would have been totally destroyed." That's how close we were.

EM: And he was willing to accept that?

Yes, and he went on to say: "Mr. McNamara, if you and President Kennedy had been in a similar situation, that's what you would have done." I said, "Mr. President, I hope to God we would not have done it. Pull the temple down on our heads? My God!"

[alrs]

Well, kinda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola

[Der_Einzige]

It's not even well kinda, Cuba absolutely did intervene heavily in Africa. The stereotype of some old south African mercenary that loves to kill communists is directly as a result of this war.

[alienthrowaway]

> It's not even well kinda, Cuba absolutely did intervene heavily in Africa.

As did the US - the CIA was instrumental in the arrest of Nelson Mandela while he was on the lam. A number of Vietnam vets went on to "fight communism" in African wars of independence.

African decolonisation and the cold war was a complex mix.On one side, you had a white settler minority ruling class, ostensibly on the side of Capitalism and western values. On the other side, you had the majority agitating for full democracy with voting rights extended beyond the minority, but found no help from the west when they requested it.

The same story played out in multiple countries, including Vietnam: they'd be rebuffed by the west, and these groups, in need of training and materiel, would look to the USSR, China and Cuba who were happy to help if the rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters could help make socialism global.

[refurb]

Have you not heard of Cuba’s role in Angola?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola

[cholantesh]

Pretty sure they're being sarcastic, but anyway, I wouldn't call that anywhere near comparable.

[legitster]

Also, one of the events on this list (The CIA's protection of "Baby Doc" Duvalier) was in no small due to the US's interest in defending off Cuban attempts at invading Haiti.

[whydoibother]

> 4,000 troops to Syria to fight against Israel in the Yom Kippur war

Supporting Arabs retaliating against an illegal land grab by Israel.

>They also probably didn't send troops into Somalia

Helping Ethiopia defend itself against aggression from Somalia, the issue of which was caused by western meddling and colonialism.

>nor support the MIR and FPMR to destabilize Chile.

Supporting forces revolting against the horrible Pinochet dictatorship.

Really, why list any of this when we are talking about unwanted CIA intervention, which usually backed murderous right wingers? Cuba's interventions were at least battling western imperialism and had the support of part of the local populations and not just the rich land owners.

[cholantesh]

Most of HN's userbase will offer the same asinine responses to questions like that:

"because western imperialism/protecting the interests of rich land owners is good",

"because the alternative is worse, just trust me bro", or

"because the local population doesn't know what's good for them and/or are/were brainwashed"

[birdyrooster]

I’m thinking that spy organizations should still have accountability when they fuck up which ultimately could be complete reorganization.

[johnknowles]

Not every country has yielded control of their top-level of government to their intelligence wing(Bushes, Clinton, Obama and their teams all have ties), nor do other countries have the operational resources to conduct as far-reaching activities as the US.

No other country purposefully develops the types of technologies and techniques that we engage with to monitor and affect global power structures.

No other country develops propaganda networks (Radio Free ___) like we do, in order to corrode the trust of non-US citizens towards their governments. We literally have to invent stories of "Russian hacking" and "Russian interference" to try and conjure up some parity.

Don't try and make false equations. We are not like the world. We may possess the same apparatuses, but we use them as the devil would.

[jolux]

Russian hacking and Russian interference is not an invention, they’re widely acknowledged throughout the West right now.

[jerkstate]

See: Operation Mockingbird. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but how was the wide acknowledgement built?

[owl_troupe]

>We literally have to invent stories of "Russian hacking" and "Russian interference" to try and conjure up some parity.

Which of these stores, specifically, were invented?

State-sponsored "hacking" and "interference" (by any definition of those terms) on the part of the Russian government are as frequent as they are well-documented.

[hpoe]

Couple of points you say "no other country" but Russia and China are definitely engaged in both.

Quite frankly it's probably only a matter of time until India develops them as well. The fact of the matter is all our history, doctrine, tactics, and studying come from living in a bi-polar world.

We aren't living in the 1940's or the Cold War, we are living in the early 1900's and we need to start studying that time to understand how to navigate and succeed in a multi-polar world (Russia, China, US, India?), or we will be fighting a trench war, while the enemy comes in with tanks and machine guns.

[johnknowles]

While other countries engage to some degree, I'm attempting to be hyperbolic to emphasize the sheer difference between US and them, which often (as it is now) gets downplayed and filtered out.

How, in the face of being presented with a list of evils the world over, are we all (us Americans) not prostrate in shame? Why do we search for some other vestige of evil to make rational our actions?

There is no rationality to the atrocities. There is no "other countries". There is US, and there is evil that must be admitted and atoned for.

[MikeUt]

> How, in the face of being presented with a list of evils the world over, are we all (us Americans) not prostrate in shame?

You're asking Americans to feel shame for the actions of an unelected agency that has subverted their democracy? And lied to them and hid those actions? Americans, as a whole, should be ashamed, not just the CIA?

Do you also demand Russians feel guilty for allowing Stalin to take power?

[johnknowles]

Yes, we should feel deep shame. We have benefitted from this for years, with lives of convenience, at the expense and exploit of millions of our brethren worldwide. It would only be naturally American to attempt to distance ourselves, to say its "just" the CIA, not us.

But it is our greed, our demand for cheaper and faster, our uncaring nature to the extractive business practices that push the CIA into action. We are complicit, every one of us, and it is only after we admit this that we can start to change. Its not about burying our heads in the sand in shame, but about understanding what we are benefitting from and having a heart for the millions pushed down to push you, as an American, up.

I don't care about the Russians. That's their problem. I'm an American. This is MY problem.

[MikeUt]

> But it is our greed, our demand for cheaper and faster, our uncaring nature to the extractive business practices that push the CIA into action.

Evocative rhetoric, that falls apart upon examination. Is it your claim that if only most Americans bought fair-trade coffee instead of the cheap stuff, the CIA would start to behave?

What about Americans that voted for politicians and presidents that promised fewer wars, or to clean up the deep state? Are they absolved of this guilt?

The CCP's tactic is to conflate criticism of the Party with criticism of the Chinese people and China itself, so that when the Party is attacked, the Chinese will also feel attacked, and rush to its defense. You are doing the same for the CIA.

[sudosysgen]

As far as I know both the MSS and the FSB are pretty solidly subordinate to the rest of their government.

The US is not playing to suceed in a multipolar world. The US is playing to maintain hegemony, ie, a monopolar world. All US strategy I've seen so far, especially economic, is focused on creating two spheres of power with the US being at the helm of the dominant one.

[jolux]

What makes you think the CIA isn’t subordinate to the rest of the government? And moreover, what does being subordinate to the government mean when that government is a dictatorship?

[sudosysgen]

The CIA has literally invaded another country by lying and deceiving the entire executive branch. That's clear cut evidence they aren't practically subordinate to the rest of the government.

Dictatorships might not be elected, they still have structure and procedure. If the Chinese MSS obeys the Politburo and doesn't withhold information from them, then they are subordinate to the government.

[jolux]

> The CIA has literally invaded another country by lying and deceiving the entire executive branch.

When?

> Dictatorships might not be elected, they still have structure and procedure. If the Chinese MSS obeys the Politburo and doesn't withhold information from them, then they are subordinate to the government.

I think you vastly overestimate the efficiency of authoritarian bureaucracies. Much has been written about this, there is a strong taboo directly against sharing information because sharing the wrong information can have lethal consequences. Authoritarian governments are marred from top to bottom by problems caused by friction in sharing information, and subsequent Balkanization.

[baybal2]

> FSB are pretty solidly subordinate to the rest of their government.

A strange statement. Putin was put in power by it.

If I were Yelzin, I would've ordered firing squads for every KGB officer above a major.

[FpUser]

>"If I were Yelzin, I would've ordered firing squads for every KGB officer above a major.

And if you were Biden would you for example order the same for any government employee who puts/keeps/prevents release of an innocent person in jail?

[sudosysgen]

Putin wasn't put in power by the FSB. He was put in power by the oligarchs. Certainly during the unstable period between 1991 and 2006 more or less the FSB had considerable influence however, but that has since been resolved. Beforethen the KGB was not afforded much lattitude. The only time I can think of where the KGB attempted to go against the wishes of the government above them was in 1964, but even then they needed support from within the Politburo and still failed miserably.

Yeltsin had no choice but to collaborate with the KGB if he wanted them to execute his machinations. The rogue elements from the KGB were the reason why Yeltsin was in power to begin with. Without the KGB he would never have been able to illegally arrest Gorbachev and execute a coup.

[baybal2]

> Without the KGB he would never have been able to illegally arrest Gorbachev and execute a coup.

I read many books on events 1990-1993. Even the two soldiers who were guarding the door when Yelzin was arresting his cabinet were hand picked through a very tight network of loyalists in the most extreme secrecy.

They had an order "see anybody resembling KGB? Fire at will"

It's a grandiose conspiracy theory of CPSU holdouts that "KGB subverted the Union!" I will believe more that Trump Donald was a communist spy, than KGB nibbling at hand that fed, and protected it from decimation at the hands everybody wanting to return the favour.