[Nursie]

The issue is that you have to install extensions, and that configurability has been deliberately removed, creating an inflexible and opinionated DE.

The problem is not that the extension API is too wide in scope, it's that you need to use an extension API at all to change even simple things.

[zxzax]

I'm afraid I don't understand -- the extensions are configurability. That hasn't been removed. If you didn't have an API to configure these things, there would be no way to do it at all, so it still sounds like you're asking for something contradictory. What would help here? What would be the benefit of removing the extension API, and what would you replace it with?

[Nursie]

It sounds more to me like you're twisting these things to make them seem contradictory.

> the extensions are configurability

And this is an inadequate mechanism.

(For me! If it works for you, that's great! Me, I like to be able to configure bars and widgets and menus and stuff wherever I want with a few clicks, which is why I run Xfce. Far be it from me to say there should only be one true desktop)

[zxzax]

I'm not sure what you mean twisting. If you're asking for the extension API to not be there, I think that would result in a strictly less configurable program. If that's not what you're asking for, then please clarify. Also, I'm not sure what you mean inadequate, the extension API is the internal API of the shell. You can use it to do anything that the shell can do. How could it be made adequate? You can install many extensions to configure the panels and menus in just a few clicks.

Edit: Somebody could probably make an extension to make the shell look and act like XFCE if that was really desired, for whatever reason. I don't think XFCE users would care much, but I just mean this as a way to illustrate what level the extension API sits at -- it's a level below the panels and menus and stuff.

[Nursie]

> You can install many extensions to configure...

There, that's the issue you're refusing to see. Having to discover and install extensions to do basic things is not a good feature.

If that's OK for you, great. Doesn't work for me.

[zxzax]

I'm sorry, please don't assume bad faith, I'm not refusing. I just don't understand how opening a configuration dialog and doing a couple clicks to install an extension that changes the panels, is different from opening another configuration dialog and making a few clicks to change the panels. It seems exactly the same to me. I don't have any preference towards either of these, I'm just interested to hear why it doesn't work for you.

[tytso]

For me, it's very simple. There are certain things that I must have in a desktop environment (DE) --- for example, having a 3x3, 2-dimensional workspace. As far as a DE is concerned, I want to be a user of the DE, not a developer of the desktop environment.

The problem is that the extension API is fundamentally unstable, and so extensions which provide the functionality that I consider a must-have, are unreliable, and may break in future versions of GNOME. I don't want to be in the position of debugging an extension which stops working in a future version of GNOME. I may be a kernel programmer, but as far as the desktop environment is concerned, I just want to be a user of it. And if an extension breaks, and I have to figure out which other extension might have the feature that I want, but which might require painful configuration somersaults after successive new GNOME versions, the answer is very simple. I'm just going to say, "No Thanks". KDE/Plasma supports what I consider to be fundamental key functionality, and I don't have to mess with it. And so GNOME is just not for me. If it works for you, great! But an extension API which is not stable, and when what I consider core functionality can only be provided by extensions which are resting on top of quicksand, is not going to be persuasive answer.

[Nursie]

Well, because I'm having to install third party pieces which may or may not break stuff, may or may not be supported for long, may or may not break on the next update, in order to achieve a base level of configurability which it seems like DE designers don't want you to have in the first place.

Maybe they fixed things in the last few years, I have no idea, but last time I had to use Gnome 3 it broke existing DE muscle memory of using all sorts of environments across all sorts of platforms, and made it hard to discover how to change anything. Having to then install third party pieces to achieve minor change is not something I feel is an adequate replacement, particularly coming from systems where easy, built-in configurability comes as standard.

Again, if that all sounds fine to you, more power to you. To me it's an opinionated DE that tries its best to push its own ideas of usage on the user, and hides any/all options behind an API rather than exposing them to the user by default.

Why would I bother with such a DE when I can find one that supports what I want to do out of the box?