[danuker]

> In human relationships we can't optimize without becoming greedy selfish unethical crooks.

I disagree. I optimize for myself AND the people around me. That is because I don't feel good when I have everything and others have nothing.

> we are optimized enough for survival already

Survival up to reproduction age, and maybe a bit more for raising grandkids. Past that, everything is our own making - we haven't ever lived so long, and the current epidemic of heart disease and cancer is as a result of never-before-seen ages and chemical substances - like the Standard American Diet.

[ysavir]

> I disagree. I optimize for myself AND the people around me. That is because I don't feel good when I have everything and others have nothing.

How much do you optimize for the people around you? Do you spread things between yourself and others equally, or optimize that everyone still get some, but you still get most?

I don't mean that as a challenge or attack. It's a genuine question.

[amelius]

> I disagree. I optimize for myself AND the people around me. That is because I don't feel good when I have everything and others have nothing.

True. But most try to make sure that they have just a little bit more than anybody else around them.

[simonh]

That is not always true in my experience. Several generations on my and my wife's families put up with backbreaking hard work and privations in order to build a better future for later generations. Simultaneously other branches of our families spent what they had and enjoyed better lives at the time instead. It was a huge investment that really paid off in my generation, my family's debt to them is incalculable and largely unpayable.

[fumar]

I feel the same way.