[thijsc]

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well!

Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free.

Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over here.

Overall many countries in Europe are amazing places to start a business in.

[reader_mode]

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well!

Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of the money and the rest was just EU grants to stimulate entrepreneurship. Do I need to say that their portfolio looks like a garbage bin of knockoff attempts and small businesses masquerading as startups.

[Yoric]

The lack of VC funding is a real problem.

On the other hand, I've seen many EU start-ups with lots of potential, developing things way ahead of the wave. Having ideas and skills is not a problem. Keeping afloat long enough to make them reality is hard.

There is also an important but unspoken cultural factor that really hurts EU initiatives: more-or-less subtle cultural imperialism. No, really, I mean it. As with many things, to succeed in the world of start-ups, you need to be validated by Silicon Valley pundits, to adopt the language of the Silicon Valley, the cultural codes of the Silicon Valley, and ultimately Silicon Valley money etc. That's really hard when you come from a culture that has different definitions of things as basic as "yes", "no" and "please", different definitions of what a good pitch is, different definitions of ethics, of the employer/employee relationship, etc. not to mention the need to live in a foreign language and, to a large extent, in a foreign timezone.

In many cases, the EU start-up bashing I've seen feels like (a reduced form of) poor-bashing, attempting to explain to people who started with fewer chances that everything is their fault.

Now, this doesn't mean that nothing should be done to improve the situation. But I've started to take EU start-up criticism with a pinch of salt.

[thijsc]

I totally agree with you that the EU's efforts to replicate a SV style startup ecosystem are misguided and ineffective.

The comment however was about the EU not being a good place to start a business. Personally I ignore all that stuff you mentioned. We just focus on building a good product. And the EU is a great place for that. I have many acquaintances that have built a multi-million euro business in the last decade.

[Learning2-2]

There is absolutely a thriving tech scene in Europe. Here is for example a list gaming companies in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_game_companies_o...

[kortilla]

That’s not “a thriving tech scene” then.

[tmpz22]

If VCs making money is your definition of a successful tech scene you sir or ma’am are utterly lost. You think Jobs or Gates were sweating over VC returns instead of drooling over the innovation and egregious wealth and cultural change they conceived?

[davidgatti]

This description is UE startups in a nutshell :) Countries like Poland for example, get massive amount of money from the EU, and there are business that specialize only in getting grants for people, which then they use to make a "company" for a year or two, and when the money runs out they close it and reopen another one with the next grant. With no revenue stream idea what so ever. In this type of country's if you have a EU grant base company, you are a meme.

Italy on the other hand, dose not use the grants, because here nobody have a clue what's the point of a company, what it means to work to build something successful, and if you talk to an Italian about the grind, or working a minimum of 16h a day, they look at you as a complete lunatic - while complaining that they don't have money. Well... Either you grind or you meet every day with your friends for an Aperitivo, and live the Dolce Vita.

[ZeroGravitas]

If the benefits of companies touted elsewhere in the thread is providing employment, why don't you hire two people to work 8 hour days and get more done?

If the answer is that you'd need to pay twice as much, then that's the equivalent of saying the person working 16 hours is getting half the going rate as well as not having any life outside work.

[tcoff91]

16 hours a day of work is crazy and you don’t have to work that much to have decent money.

[mattmanser]

No offense, but that stuff's pocket change to the actual economies of the EU. It's a redistribution of wealth without having to admit that's what it really is, and if it scores a success, great.

It's very easy to forget that there are only 3 countries worth talking about in the EU economically, previously 4, but the UK leaving basically took 20% of the EU's GDP.

Now there's France, Germany and Italy, and everyone else is basically irrelevant, although you might just include Spain or Holland.

[Hamuko]

>working a minimum of 16h a day, they look at you as a complete lunatic

As they should.

[Dudeman112]

I don't think op is gonna admit to being a lunatic, even if they do engage in such behaviors like thinking that working 16h per day isn't insanity

[Haemm0r]

I'd prefer Dolce Vita over 16h/day anytime! :-)

[bennybob]

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

[sdoering]

What is the overall cost of living associated with the respective salary. Amd of people proposing a free market, why is it a problem that suddenly the same job is paid more for in a more competitive job market?

As others pointed out, CoL is also way lower in most parts were there are relevant jobs to be had.

I am working a job that would pay at least double in SF. I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week, 6 weeks of holiday, paid overtime, really good health care covered by insurance.

I live in one of the four largest cities in Germany. So I benefit from the infrastructure like theater, Medical stuff and so on as well.

And also the ability to start a business on the side with filling out a single form.

And I am able to generate FU money from my main salary, go on trips, give to charity and such.

Reading about insane prices for living in SF or other tech regions puts a damper on the high salaries IMHO.

But I also define my life not by the amount on my pay check.

[ChuckNorris89]

> I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week

How is that possible? When I look at typical wages in Germany (50k - 80k Euros) vs cost of houses that size in Germany's four biggest cities (800k to over 1 Million Euros), something does not add up. Either your pay is way above market rates or you got your property way below market rate.

Either way, to me at least, your situation is extremely fortunate but you're an outlier and no developer moving to Germany could replicate it in the current market conditions.

[sdoering]

Bought a property for 210k in 2011. Invested 160k and a lot of manual labor for renovation. Current value is around 500k. Not sure were you have your numbers. But sure. I can get a similar property for 900k or more in some other parts of Hamburg. I could probably pay more than a million in the most prestigious parts. Living in a middle class area surrounded by greenery is more luxurious in my book, though.

[j_wtf_all_taken]

> Not sure were you have your numbers.

They're made up.

[bennybob]

I worked with contractors based in Denver, their salaries were 3 times mine. I don't think cost of living in Denver is insane? Property prices were I am are insane

[thow-01187]

Wages in tech are laughably bad anywhere in the world, when compared to US. Tech landscape in Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea or Taiwan looks much more like Europe than like US. US is the outlier here, not Europe

[tcoff91]

Isn’t university for your children free in Germany? That’s like a 100-200 thousand dollar savings if you have two kids you want to put through college vs the USA.

[barry-cotter]

The average college graduate in the US has $35,000 in debt. There are plenty of excellent, cheap public universities. If you don’t want to work in journalism, academia, management consulting or one of the other bastions of privilege and pedigree there’s little reason to pay the premium necessary to go to a top tier private university. And every single person who pays sticker price to go to a no name private college is wasting their money.

[Apocryphon]

Or the healthcare, saner rent prices, better traffic because of public transit?

[developer93]

I believe you have to pay 500 EUR/year, it may have changed though.

[anoncake]

That's roughly correct, it depends on the university. Usually most of the cost is for the public transport ticket.

[zingar]

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO.

At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

[reader_mode]

I don't get this part - 2 weeks PTO - OK - tech companies are flexible in looking for good talent - if you're getting paid 2x you can work 6months a year to break even. Now taking off 6 months unpaid isn't realistic - but a month off isn't that unusual.

And the healthcare part what are you even talking about - what employer doesn't provide healthcare in tech ? You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS (eg. decent dental)

[dukeyukey]

> You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS

What would an NHS-style plan cost in the US? Like, I'd be happy in a shared hospital room and having lower priority for non-emergency care, but in exchange having 0 co-pay, 0 deductible, 100% coverage for everything (including long-term care), 0 ambulance fees and a maximum prescription cost per item of $12/month?

[bennybob]

Some of the NHS health care is shocking. I watched my dad dying on a ward with utterly shit jobs worth nursing staff. After enough of that he ended up in ICU with great care and died. Northern Ireland's NHS is an utter shambles. 3 week wait to see a GP. Surgery wait times of years. It's a crisis. I've got private health cover. Though don't be critical of the NHS, you ll be branded a heretic.

[midasuni]

Per item? U.K. prescription costs £108 for 12 months, no matter how many items you have.

(Unless you’re in scotland and Wales where it’s just free, because prescriptions are a trivial cost)

[238475235243]

Your understanding of tech work in the US is basically wrong in every way, and sounds like you're parroting BBC propaganda on why everywhere is terrible but the UK.

I suggest living in the US for a year or two to see if it's the dystopian hellscape you think it is - you can always fly home to the glorious NHS if you stub your toe.

[zingar]

My passport and US immigration laws mean that I have to enter a lottery in order to get a job. No thanks.

The other aspect I forgot to mention is the way work days are treated. I work 7.5-8 hour days and then I get to hack on my own stuff. I'm sceptical of US attitudes to overtime.

[jandrewrogers]

2 weeks of PTO is the customary minimum in the US, and there is no legal minimum at all. Nonetheless, many people at good jobs receive more like 4-5 weeks of PTO. It really depends on where you work. I've never had less than 4 weeks of PTO at any vaguely tech-oriented company.

[developer93]

I believe in some US states there is exactly zero legal pto

[jandrewrogers]

That's the case in all US States as far as I know. Nonetheless, every job I've had, in multiple States, going back well over a decade had 4-6 weeks of PTO.

The customary minimum is 2 weeks but most companies offer more and you can negotiate for more.

[developer93]

Yes but you get so much more for your taxes here that it evens out, in fact I think someone ran the numbers with Denmark and US as examples and actually the Denmark example had more disposable income after tax because the US person had to pay so much more for so much extra stuff that's included here.

[dukeyukey]

Silicon Valley is top, we all know that. But in terms of startup funding, after the SFBA and Beijing comes London. In terms of startup-friendliness, London typically beats every US hub except the SFBA, and occasionally ties with NYC.

I'll give you places like Stockholm and Amsterdam don't quite hit those heights, but still have healthy ecosystems going for them. But it's difficult to describe the 'EU' way of doing things because the EU is not a federal government; each country is a separate nation, with far more differentiating them than US states

[JumpCrisscross]

> in terms of startup funding, after the SFBA and Beijing comes London

Do not believe this is correct. In 2016, London was No. 7, after 6 American cities; it was ahead of Beijing and Shanghai individually, though not collectively [1]. The next European city is Paris, in No. 16, after Chicago, Austin and Mumbai.

[1[] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/globa...

[dukeyukey]

https://technation.io/report2021/#key-statistics

I was slightly off, London comes 4th after the Bay Area, Beijing and New York, but handily wins out over Boston, Seattle, or any EU city.

[dukeyukey]

I'll dig out the report I'm thinking about, but the data in yours is either from 2016 (report date) or 2012 (where they say at least some of their data is from).

[jandrewrogers]

London is definitely better than the continent for startups, and you can reasonably build a successful startup there (I have). However, in my experience any of the major US tech hubs still have significant competitive advantages versus London for starting a company.

The business and culture of tech startups is just a really mature and highly developed industry in the US. It started in Silicon Valley but these days it is spread across several cities, and there is more domain specialization by city including Silicon Valley.

[reader_mode]

London is not EU, even when they were a member they were a separate story.

[midasuni]

Pre covid U.K. was part of EU, very little has changed yet - same regulations and taxes as in 2019

Claiming “ahh U.K. is different” you might as well say “ahh Bay Area is different”.

[reader_mode]

But UK (and London especially) is different - that's why they left the EU and were always in tention with EU when they were a member, especially with regards to their financial sector. Bay Area, New York, Austin, US has a decent number of hubs, London is most comparable to New York from my experience (I've worked in a London based startup, NY agency and a SF startup) mostly focused on financial and not really into hard tech.

[midasuni]

The U.K. left the EU because of left behind towns blaming the EU for their problems.

London (like Scotland, Liverpool, Manchester) voted massively to stay in the EU. Other gentrified cities like Leeds, Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge also voted to remain.

Where is your evidence that leave was driven by London doing things differently?

[dukeyukey]

The UK is different, because the EU is not like the US federal government. Economic systems and cultures vary massively across the EU, far more than across US states. Hell, half the EU were Marxist-Leninist autocracies just a few decades ago!

[midasuni]

In which case you can say “Portugal is different” or “Denmark is different”

Saying “U.K. is different” implies that Finland, Greece and France are relatively similar

[238475235243]

This is entirely accurate from my experience. It's cargo cult "tech scene".

[C19is20]

Firing isn't 'harder', it just has to be done correctly.

[marvin]

Giving two written warnings two weeks apart for one of the five objective reasons that are grounds for firing, then firing with a three month notice period is by definition harder than saying "you're fired, please leave the building immediately".

[imtringued]

I don't know what country you are talking about but if it was about Germany then what you just said is a lot of bullshit.

What you can do in Germany is the following: "you're fired, please leave in x weeks" (x depends on the employment contract, usually two weeks). Those two weeks are just a matter of dignity. To give both the business and the employer time to part.

[marvin]

This was an approximation of Norway's rules and was not a load of bullshit. Briefly, firing someone is only allowed if their position is no longer necessary and no alternative position exists, the company needs to reduce its headcount or if the employee has significantly derelicted their duties. There are significant judicial details that usually count in the employee's favor.

Standard terms in employment agreements is three months' notice, although as little as one month may be agreed upon when employment starts. The agreed notice period can only rarely be deviated from without mutual agreement.

[midasuni]

So employ people on fixed 3 month contracts, or even by day. You’ll have to pay more of course.

[marvin]

This was actually illegal in Norway until recently. It is legal now, though, and you're right that this is an option. For in-demand professions like software engineers, such a scheme actually requires salaries that are comparable to those of moderately high cost-of-living areas in the US.

A typical annual fee would be ~$200.000 pre-tax for a full-time consulting gig, with 25% VAT paid by the employer on top of that. Contractor pays approximately 50% tax on their fee. It's a bit strange that few companies actually do this, although many will have part of their workforce employed like this indirectly, through a contracting agency. It's popular for roles that have a weak negotiating position, such as teachers, call center employees, nurses etc. Although rarely with contract lengths as short as 3 months.

[andi999]

I wish there were thriving tech scene in Europe.

[SOMA_BOFH]

>There is a thriving tech scene in Europe

please explain

[thijsc]

Hard to know where to start!

Looking at the Netherlands, where I'm from: There are many fast-growing tech companies. Both big and small. Bigger examples are Adyen and Elastic. GitLab started out here.

This is a pretty nice overview, which still misses a lot: https://www.notion.so/Dutch-SaaS-Landscape-89504403a57e43f58...

There are many many tech companies with 10s of millions of revenue that aren't even on this list.

On the other side of the spectrum we have a huge high-tech industry around Eindhoven. ASML is market leader by far in machines to produce chips. The M1 is made possible by them for a large part. NXP is a huge chip company.

I could go on. There is a very diverse landscape here. I'm sure if you look closely you will find a lot in other European countries too.

[berkes]

... Just Eat Takaway. Booking.com are from the Netherlands too.

Spotify is Swedish. As is Klarna and Mojang. SoundCloud is German. Mixcloud British.

Several of the covid vaccines were develeoped in europe (albeit under the umbrella of US companies such as J&J).

Volkwagen and Volvo are beating Tesla in sales numbers and in getting self driving to market hands down.

There is lots of high tech in Europe.

Just Because there are no redicoulous overvalued tech corps, does not mean we aren't creating solid, profitable tech here.

[ahartmetz]

The BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine was AFAIK developed entirely in Germany by BioNTech. Pfizer helped with regulatory affairs, logistics and mass production.

It is also interesting that three key people at BioNTech (founders and an original developer of mRNA medicine) are immigrants. That is an interesting similarity to SV. Soundcloud was also started by two Swedes in Berlin. That one is probably entirely due to the cultural capital of Berlin - from what I hear, Sweden is a good place for software businesses.

[relativ575]

mRNA vaccine was originated in the US in the 1980s [1]. BioNTech got in the mRNA game thanks to Katalin Kariko, who was a professor at UPenn [2].

Moderna started working at mRNA based approach in the similar timeframe, and get similar results. Also what does it tell you that Moderna can do trial and manufacturing on its own, as opposed to BioNTech who has to rely on Pfizer? Trial was absolutely vital in order to bring the vaccine to the mass that quickly, and Pfizer's role was essential.

Of course Katalin is also Hungarian, so again, it goes to prove that things are complicated than it appears.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karik%C3%B3

[ahartmetz]

Katalin Kariko is the third key person at BioNTech that I mentioned ;)

[fifilura]

It is not possible to argue that Volvo is European anymore unfortunately.

It was sold by the american company Ford to the chinese company Geely.

[mxschumacher]

Volvo cars was sold, volvo trucks and heavy machinery for construction are still independent

[dmitriid]

Volvo's R&D is in Sweden.

[barry-cotter]

> Booking.com are from the Netherlands too.

Booking has been owned by a US company since 2005.

[midasuni]

That’s the US M.O. any innovation gets bought out by successful companies.

[Nimitz14]

Nothing you mentioned is high tech. Car companies haven't innovated anything in decades. Spotify is a perfect example of a company with lots of revenue that doesn't do anything interesting with it.

[berkes]

> Spotify is a perfect example of a company with lots of revenue that doesn't do anything interesting with it.

As an investor, I'm very reluctant of those typical SV companies who use debt to finance growth. Not for nothing that the investing world is jitterish lately, with an interest-rate increase looming: it's very bad for tech stocks.

I see those as unhealthy or at least very risky (though I have one or two of those in my portfolio: spread)

Spotify is still growing at mad pace; even compared to the COVID/lockdown boom, they are doing well. Spending loads of cash to landgrab the podcast market. Spending loads of cash to move into the audiobook market.

I can understand the grudge some US people feel over a company like Spotify: why not a US-company? Why are they attacking our tech-pride AAPL? Why are they taking hold of our US-media (podcasts) and our entertainment (music)? But Spotify really is what it is: a tech success. Albeit a more typical European one: less debt, slower, more organic growth and less horn-tooting.

(this is not investment advise)

[effie]

Ramp up of electric car production isn't innovation?

[marvin]

I'm as big a fan of the European businesses that succeed as anyone, but the car industry would still have been dragging its feet if Tesla hadn't provided a credible threat to eat most of their market share.

[joelbluminator]

You chose the most competitive European economy (besides Sweden), that's not a good representation to Europe. But even if we only look at NL there are quite a few metrics it falls way short from the U.S: VC raised per capita, exit volume and salaries are all falling short.

[thijsc]

> You chose the most competitive European economy (besides Sweden), that's not a good representation to Europe.

There are also vast differences between states in the US. If we're comparing I think it's perfectly reasonable to pick places that are on the top end of the scale on both sides of the ocean.

> But even if we only look at NL there are quite a few metrics it falls way short from the U.S: VC raised per capita, exit volume and salaries are all falling short.

I'm not claiming that the EU is equivalent to SV, or the wider US. There is certainly much to love about SV and we can and should do better in a number of areas in which SV is already doing very well.

I'm only correcting the unfounded assumption that some people in this thread expressed that there's somehow nothing going on in the EU. Or that it's a bad place for business, it's really not.

[SOMA_BOFH]

your anecdotal evidence is quite entertaining. please continue.

[dang]

Would you please stop posting flamewar and/or unsubstantive comments to HN? You've been doing it a lot and we ban that sort of account because we're trying for a different kind of site here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit more to heart, we'd be grateful.

[SOMA_BOFH]

will do. you are correct.

[dang]

Appreciated!

[emptysongglass]

Work for a tech company in Europe. GDPR compliance is costing us massive manpower hours and money spent on compliance consultants. Most of my salary gets obliterated before it reaches me and I make significantly less than tech workers in the US.

There's a lot to like about the security but I'm starting to wonder if I can ever really break out of working until I'm enfeebled here.

[ativzzz]

> I can ever really break out of working until I'm enfeebled here.

It's a different life model. The EU seems better aligned for enjoying life outside of work. The US seems better aligned for enjoying life as a result of work.

You can't break out of working in the US either, until you save up a lot of money, which requires either a super high paying career, or a ton of sacrifices in terms of quality of life

[midasuni]

What country, how much do you pay, why are you so concerned about personal information when you could simply not collect it?

Im concerned you think functions like Infosec are a drain too (same principles as gdpr - ensure you are handling information securely), please tell me who it is so I don’t invest

[emptysongglass]

What a completely ignorant line of questioning. You have no idea what product I work on or if I have anything to do with compliance. And you appear to assume that the use of personal data is a binary switch you can just flip on or off, regardless of the product.

Why would I be interested in answering any question you have given your evident distaste for myself, my job, and my industry?

[midasuni]

Your attitude to other people’s data is exactly why the GDPR and similar rules like HIPA exist.

[emptysongglass]

Who said anything about my attitude toward other people's data? You don't know anything about me. Stop turning me into your vehicle to rail against what you see as an industry abuse of personal data.

What I said was that GDPR compliance is expensive and uses manpower that US companies don't need to spend like EU companies, which may help to explain the challenges that EU tech companies face when competing with US tech companies. The degree of regulatory compliance EU companies must satisfy might also explain why I'm getting paid peanuts when I could be earning more in the US.

[thijsc]

Not a fan of GDPR either.

I'm really not sure the total tax load as an employee is much worse compared to California if you factor in state taxes and health care payments.

[brtkdotse]

And child care costs and college savings.