[grammarnazzzi]

> Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically

The extreme elements of 3rd wave feminism has influcenced society in ways that unfairly and negatively impact boys.

Specifically the concept of "toxic masculinity". Toxic people are toxic. Toxic behaviors are toxic. Toxic people should be shamed and toxic behaviors should be discouraged.

Boys should not be shamed for being masculine, and masuclinity should not be discouraged.

[developer93]

This is not what toxic masculinity means. It's not saying masculinity is toxic, toxic is a qualifier not a description. It's used to talk about those attitudes which are ascribed by some people to be super masculine, but actually are just unhealthy (like hyper aggression, or the idea, ironically, that men shouldn't ask for help or complain about anything)

[TheAdamAndChe]

The way you phrase a word affects its interpretation. Imagine for a minute if the term "neurotic feminity" was a common thing, and described how anxiety, depression, and other negative aspects of stereotypically female behavior are actually just unhealthy. People would be upset because the phrasing implies that feminity itself is bad, which is wrong.

[developer93]

It really doesn't: do you think that saying small houses or purple birds implies that all houses are small or all birds are purple?

[grammarnazzzi]

The term "toxic masculinity" creates a subliminal negative association between "male" and "toxicity".

Although you can rationalize the association away, it still exists and influences listeners. It's marketing against men.

If you really wanted to address issues with hyper-agression, you would use the term "hyper-agression", which is gender-neutral.

If you really wanted to address the consequence of not asking for help or compaining, you would perhaps use the term "stoicism", which is gender-neutral.

If you really wanted to address people overly affected by irrational fears, you would use the term "neuroticism", rather than "toxic femininity"

[developer93]

I think it's also been promoted like that as a straw man by vested interests. Like I said in another comment outrage sells wat better than assuming the best.

All these traits together are a subset of those denoted by "masculinity". I would not have a problem with toxic femininity being used in the same context, for example to describe the idea that a woman shouldn't earn her own way, or that one should manipulate men to get ahead or whatever else.

For the record I'd be far happier if the concepts of masculinity and femininity didn't exist at all, I think it just puts us in boxes and makes us insecure, but unfortunately they do.

[FooBarBizBazz]

Your word "marketing" here represents a good insight.

[developer93]

And it's also wrong. With no other phrase that I can think of does that apply. Yellow birds, American presidents, main road, farmer's field, tall tree.

[wwweston]

> Toxic people are toxic.

Yes, and generally when the term "toxic people" is used, few assume that the speaker is saying that "people are toxic" and "people should be shamed for being people."

And yet... you've done pretty much that with the term "toxic masculinity." It's almost as if someone has persuaded you that adjectives are actually appositives.

The phrase "toxic masculinity" no more implies that masculinity itself should be discouraged or shamed than the phrase "toxic food" implies the entire world should fast forever.

And like "toxic food" would suggest there's some subset of foodstuffs one should avoid, it does suggest that there's some subset of masculine-identified behavior that are unhealthy for either those acting those behaviors out, or those on the receiving end of them.

[FooBarBizBazz]

"I'm not complaining about the Mexicans, I'm complaining about the LAZY Mexicans, can't you do logic?"

Nobody's fooled.

[UncleMeat]

Ok. What phrase would you use? Presumably you do agree that there are elements of masculinity that are harmful, both to men and women. How should we describe these in a way that is impossible to misinterpret?

[grammarnazzzi]

The difference is that "toxic food" directly implies food that is poisonous.

"Toxic masulinity" has no obvious or direct meaning. It's a made up term. It's marketing. It itself conveys no useful meaning other than to associate masculitity with toxicicity.

To tie such a negative term to any other social/gender group would be called out as the biggotry it is.

[tacocataco]

Women can be influenced by toxic masculinity as well.

[fb13]

I've never encountered "toxic masculinity" in my entire life.

Conservatives will be conservatives, aka creating a straw man so their base can feel just and continue in their camaraderie-through-bullying strategy.

Like the abolishment of "critical race theory" which was taught exactly zero places in the US before the calling for it's ban.

[exporectomy]

I've encountered a lot of it before it had that name. It appears as bullying, talking over people, arrogance, aggression, threats of violence, violence, condescension, etc. Generally, efforts gain dominance over others in ways that harm them rather than being genuinely better at dominating constructively.

I think it's fine to call it toxic masculinity as long as people don't get it confused with healthy masculinity (not the same as femininity) or forget that toxic femininity exists or assume all men have toxic masculinity, or all the other misunderstandings that come with simplistic judgements of popular issues.

[okaram]

The problem is that some behaviors traditionally associated with masculinity (mostly violence) are toxic, hence toxic masculinity.

[hajile]

There was a study on domestic violence a few years ago. It broke down DV into asymmetric violence (one violent person) and symmetric violent (both people).

It found that the overwhelming bulk of DV was symmetric. In asymmetric cases, it was actually perpetuated by the woman in some 2/3 of cases. Further, in symmetric violence, the women admitted to starting the encounters 2/3 of the time.

Likewise, if a weapon is involved in DV, it was used by a woman in something like 4 out of 5 cases.

In most places, the law is to arrest the bigger party even if they were NOT the aggressor. Further, the law often dictates that an arrest is MANDATORY. This combination makes it easy to arrest large numbers of men which then plays havoc with the DV statistics.

As another data point, DV between gay (male) partners is several times less than heterosexual partners while DV between lesbian partners is several times higher.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

[FooBarBizBazz]

Those DV numbers match divorce rates. Gay men have the stablest marriages.