Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by bcaa7f3a8bbc 1843 days ago
The experienced and mysterious audio engineer "NwAvGuy" [0] praised the virtue of using two gain stages and moving the volume control away from the first input to reduce Johnson noise in audio amplifier designs [1]. It's a good example of how the basic principle applies both to mundane audio and cutting-edge science: the system noise is dominated by the first amplifier stage. Adding some noise before the first stage significantly degrades signal-to-noise ratio, but adding the same noise after the first stage is often acceptable since the signal is much stronger now. To reduce noise, you move the noise-generating resistor away in an audio amp, or cryogenically cool the resistor in a radio telescope front-end.

> One of the big claims for many audiophile op amps is lower noise. The chip manufactures make a big deal about it and audiophiles, not surprisingly, have jumped on the bandwagon. But, in reality, it’s often the Johnson Noise that limits the noise performance of a headphone amp, not the op amps. Johnson Noise is, literally, self generated noise that’s present in any resistor. The larger the resistor value, the more noise you get. Many DIY headphone amp designs have the volume control at the input to the gain stage. And it’s, at the lowest, usually 10,000 ohms. By comparison the O2 has 274 ohms in series with the input. That’s a huge difference in Johnson Noise. The way volume controls work, the noise is typically worst at half volume where you have 5000 ohms in series with the source and 5000 ohms to ground. So, at typical volume settings, you get a fair amount of Johnson Noise from the volume control that’s amplified by whatever gain your amp has. That noise typically exceeds the op amp’s internal noise. If you put the volume control after the gain stage its Johnson Noise is no longer amplified. And, as a bonus, the volume control at lower settings now attenuates noise from the gain stage. For more, see O2 Circuit Description and Circuit Design.

> To put these numbers in perspective, referenced to the old 400 mV they’re –105.3 dBr and –108.2 dBr. On the exact same test, at half volume, the Mini3 had nearly 11 dB more noise and measured –94.5 and –97.5 dB. Noise of –113 dB below 1 volt is under 3 microvolts.

[0] https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/nw...

[1] https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html

5 comments

It's relatively easy to make a headphone amp quiet because its input is typically already quite strong.

Noise is more of a problem for microphone preamps, guitar pickups, etc., where the input signal is weak.

Bingo. In any piece of music gear that is after the guitar/mic preamp, where it is working with line level signal (a higher voltage than consumer audio line level, by the way), it hardly matters where you put the volume knob. If you design it halfway well, it will be quiet as a mouse.
I think I remember seeing this in "The Art of Electronics" for actually amplifying shot noise for a hardware random number generator.
> the system noise is dominated by the first amplifier stage.

In radio receiver design you have an LNA, low noise amplifier, as the first stage. It's designed for low noise and to be linear. Idea is take the energy from the antenna and amplify it with as little noise and cross modulation as possible[1].

[1] If the amp is non linear you end up folding out of band signals into your band of interest.

The former bit is illustrated by the Friis formula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friis_formulas_for_noise

Has anyone worked out what happened to NwAvGuy yet? Afaik he never posted anything about taking a break or going away for a while. Given his pseudonym was totally anonymous I can only speculate - he could be dead or in prison or something...
That's really interesting. Is that a common design in headphone and other consumer amps?
It basically is now. He didn't invent the technique, but popularized it in inexpensive devices.

The O2 has been surpassed by many great designs, but the O2 really did start that arms race.

It was also popular in the 80s, 70s, 60s, and yes, the 50s. Everything old is new. The real question is, "Why did people switch to single stage amps in the 1990s and 2000s?" The answer is that a bunch of chips appeared on the market around that time which could do everything.
I'd say a higher end DAC/amp would consider it. My Benchmark devices (which nwavguy uses as a reference to build his O2 and ODAC) does it the right way.