[markus_zhang]

I think Paul Graham has an excellent article named Hacker and Painter regarding this. I think the only way is to develop your own products.

So far I habe worked in a few companies as a business analyst and a bi developer but I have never seen one that allows the dev team to have some final say in the products. Products are always dictated by business team, then project manager or business analyst breaks them down to tickets that you guus understand, i. e. the scope. The lead further breaks them dowm into sprints and tickets.

So you can see that sometimes even product managers don't have much a say in the product.

[oncethere]

Thanks for the pointer to the article!

Yeah, that's a good point. The PM is sometimes pretty constrained by the business. Maybe it's just a grass is greener thing. Have you been anywhere where the eng team had some say in what they make?

[Twixes]

Currently working at PostHog, an engineering-centric product-led startup (20-odd people currently) all our engineering teams fully own an aspect of the product and prioritize themselves. Obviously there's company-wide context and company leadership has crucial input, but since hiring optimizes for maximally self-sufficient people, there's no PMs. I'm a big fan of that as an engineer

[markus_zhang]

Sorry I have never seen one such place. I mean for sure in each place I stayed (custom service center, gaming and one I can't say), the eng team has SOME say in the product, but most od the time it's just small details of the design or something similar that they can argue about. Actually data analysts have a lot more say because they have the data to back them up when they want to make recommendations.