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by magoon 1844 days ago
I’m surprised to hear that bluetooth, GPS, and cellular don’t work in water. I wonder what’s the science behind this.
11 comments

Radio is part of the EM spectrum. EM waves (including light) decay under water at an exponential rate due to absorption by the medium. So data transmission underwater must rely instead on mechanical waves (sound).

This is why underwater robots mostly use tethers, otherwise you couldn't control them very well (RC control would stop working at a very shallow depth).

Note: why are folks downvoting an honest question?

> (including light)

I remember being told in some physics class that visible light is actually the radiation which penetrates the most, and that indeed this may be the very reason why it's visible: eyes were developed when life was still aquatic, therefore they evolved to be sensitive to the range of frequencies that could reach them.

Yeah it does penetrate the most, so you do see some communications utilizing visible light comms. But the bitrate is bad and gets worse very quickly as you go deeper. Like, sunlight will penetrate the water a lot especially since there's so much of it coming down broad spectrum, but shoot a laser into seawater and you'll find the beam dissipates rather quickly.

It's mostly water-to-surface comms that can tolerate being in the very top of the water column that utilize this tech. Unfortunately aligning the transmitter/receivers is a bit tricky -- a lot of research has gone into better ways to send and receive information from air into water.

I guess it makes sense if eyes developed aquatically first, but it doesn't seem that interesting in the sense that most things developed aquatically first. Like even if it didn't develop aquatically, seems like evolution would have found its way on land, where sight is more useful, especially since you can't use things like lateral lines to detect pressure fluctuations (I mean there's terrestrial hearing, but seems like being immersed in a dense medium makes pressure sensing that much more important).

Don't EM waves decay at an exponential rate in all mediums?
No, usually it’s polynomial. Radius squared, that is.
Sure but what's the exponent?
"Note: why are folks downvoting an honest question?"

I suppose because of Friday.

Most water you’d drop a phone into has enough traces of salt to make it conductive. Therefore, the water acts like a faraday cage.

Theres a calculation you can do to calculate this, its pretty standard E&M stuff. Basically you calculate the skin depth of the material and thats as far as the signal can penetrate. The derivation highlights some cool things:

1. Its frequency dependent. This is why military submarines communicate at around 30 Hz.

2. Your audio cable (and all high frequency power cables) are stranded

3. Your microwave is effectively shielded with a thin layer of metal

4. An induction stove wont work with Al pans, but will quickly melt Al foil

Wow, that's fascinating. I've never heard of this—I assumed it was only because the water is dense enough that it absorbs the radio signals.
Lots of answers already, but let me contribute this little heuristic:

Radio waves, being EM radiation, are just light - like "visible light", except our eyes can't see it. There are some peculiarities related to wavelengths (particularly when they get very large, or close to the size of a regular surface pattern of an illuminated object), but to a good approximation, you can mentally replace "radio antenna" with "a lightbulb", and make correct determinations about how radio behaves.

In this case: much like you can't see much in water, compared to air, and a submerged flashlight also doesn't shine very far, a submerged phone has a hard time seeing signals, and its emissions don't travel far either.

That's a good question, submarines use very low frequencies for communication, so I assume bluetooth/GSM might be pretty attenuated by the water? But also it might have turned off due to the water shorting something?
Signal attenuation is correct.
Are different frequencies attenuated differently then out of interest in water?
Different frequencies are attenuated differently, yes. So like, green laser vs red laser will have different max distances under water.

Fun fact, salinity of water also affects transmission. So rate of transmission in a lake vs ocean is also going to be different.

Yes, generally the smaller the wavelength, the worse the attenuation. Quick googling: 4g is 600Mhz to 2.5Ghz or 0.5m to 12.5cm wavelength. For comparison, the US Navy uses 80Hz or 3750km wavelength to talk to submerged submarines.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_dipole

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_dipole :

> After initially considering several larger systems (Project Sanguine), the U.S. Navy constructed two ELF transmitter facilities...

> Both transmitters were shut down in 2004. The official Navy explanation was that advances in VLF communication systems had made them unnecessary.

I then started reading about VLF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency and on that page I see this sentence:

> VLF waves used to communicate with submarines have created an artificial bubble around the Earth that can protect it from solar flares and coronal mass ejections; this occurred through interaction with high-energy radiation particles.

That sounds absolutely weird - how should that "...that can protect it from solar flares..." be interpreted?

EDIT: didn't notice Wikipedia's linked article - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/05/wow-guys...

water absorbs 2.4GHz readily. this is why microwaves use that frequency to heat your food. microwaves are why that frequency band is unlicensed, too.

so that's Bluetooth and wi-fi ruled out.

GPS is a lower frequency, ~1.5GHz I think, and GPS is already an extremely low power signal.

I don't know about 4g or 5g though.

4G and 5G are going to depend on the mobile carrier. In the US, at least, that's usually going to be somewhere between 850MHz and 2100MHz. I recall reading something more recent about 700MHz being opened up in some areas.

Looks like Germany is 700-2600MHz for 4G, with 5G up at 3500MHz[0].

For underwater stuff it looks like you need something much lower in the kHz range[1], at least for distances of up to a couple hundred feet. Obviously this particular situation involves a much shorter distance. The page on MF radio[2] does mention water, and talks about frequencies up to 3MHz, but that's still way lower than any LTE bands used.

[0] https://www.gsmarena.com/network-bands.php3?sCountry=GERMANY

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_frequency

Verizon has used 700MHz for a long time, its their primary band. T-mobile uses 700MHz and 600MHz in many areas (generally as range extension, not a primary band).
Signal also drops out pretty fast - once you go past a few cm (lets say 3-5cm, about 2") signal is out...

I once tested that with a waterproof phone in clear water, can't recall which phone it was tho...

Don't feel brave enough to try it with my iPhone 8, even tho it supposedly is waterproof as well - my SO once tested it with a spilled drink...

> I wonder what’s the science behind this.

the same general reason why microwave band radio sees signal fade when there's rain on a point-to-point link through the air, but magnified greatly since the radio is now inside a solid mass of water. One of the problems faced by modern submarines for data communications, they use either ELF/VLF trailing antennas that are spooled out, while running 'kind of' shallow, or buoys, or antennas on periscope masts.

It’s why we use sonar rather than radar to see underwater… Indeed also the reason we can use radar to detect rainclouds.
Not much different than why they don't work through the ground - it's mass that absorbs a wide range of frequencies.
water absorbs electromagnetic waves, especially high frequency ones. That's why your microwave heats things :D