[rorykoehler]

25% is what I would expect. You're getting some of the other expenses back eventually (hopefully) in form of pensions, unemployment (if you ever need it) etc. Health itself is a service you are buying. I wouldn't call it a tax despite it being mandatory. I think taxes are too high and the system needs to be redesigned but I just think we need to be exact on our figures when we discuss this stuff.

[Grustaf]

You can expect whatever you want, but no middle class person pays as little as 25% in Europe, only the wealthy and the desperately poor get away that cheap.

[tluyben2]

Unless you do not mind moving every 7-10 years.

[rorykoehler]

I'm middle class and that's about what I pay (effective tax rate) in Germany. It's a bit less actually.

[Grustaf]

As I wrote elsewhere, if you make below 50 k in Germany and your wife isn't working, I don't think that's a very comfortable life style.

[rorykoehler]

I want for nothing.

Edit: I just want you be clear here. I think the tax rate is way too high even at 25% effective tax rate. The system is overburdening poor people no doubt about it but I also think we should not fudge the numbers by claiming we pay the top tax band rates as effective rate because it invalidates whatever else we say after that. It’s dishonest. IMO effective tax rate should be <5% and actually 0% for most of us.

[Grustaf]

As I wrote somewhere, most middle class people people in Europe pay way more than 25%, the average in Denmark being 45%. With payroll tax it would be more like 55%, and it really makes no sense NOT to count payroll taxes.

And 5% is not realistic, even if you eliminate all the pork, corruption and inefficiencies. You can't provide education and healthcare and maintain infrastructure for 5%.

I hate paying taxes but 20% would definitely not feel unreasonable for all those things, I'd pay that happily.

[rorykoehler]

You get the money from other places than income tax on the poor

[edp]

I get what you're saying, it's not strictly income tax, but the end result is the same : it's a mandatory tax, based on what you earn. As for getting these expenses back, I hope I will have work and be healthy for as long as possible, and I'm happy to pay these taxes for poorer people to get access to healthcare or unemployment benefits. But I sure feel ~50% of my income is going into taxes without being a millionaire.

[Algent]

His numbers aren't false for France. I don't have my last payslip on hand right now but it show cost for employer and it's roughly the double of what you get after taxes. Something like 3k€/month before tax turn into around 2100€ for you but your boss have social charges on top of it so for him it's more like a 4k€ cost.

[disiplus]

it sure feels like taxes because it is based on your pay. In other countries like Switzerland it costs the same if you earn 5 or 10 k CHF.

[rorykoehler]

In Germany health insurance for example is also based on income but it's capped. My point is that it is more nuanced than 40%. No one counts the money they get back from these programs when they need to use them in their calculation etc