[tastyfreeze]

Any person in the US can improve their lot in life. Nobody said it is easy. Success is hard work with a measure of luck. But, it is absolutely possible to go from living on the streets to living in a mansion in a lifetime. How is that not equal opportunity?

[gambiting]

I cannot stop myself but flip this around - how can you possibly call this an equal opportunity?

It's like having a race where some people start 100m behind others and saying "well if they try hard enough, they can still win! The race itself is fair after all!"

>>Success is hard work with a measure of luck.

Of course ,but the American system is 1) ignoring that some people started at a much worse position in life and expecting them to "just work harder" 2) assuming that any problem you might encounter in your life is of your own doing, after all if you get into an accident and end up in lifetime medical debt.....well you shouldn't have gotten into an accident, right? Or again - just work hard to pay it back and you're fine?

After all it is possible. Yes, and winning lottery is technically possible but I don't think buying Lotto tickets is a valid way of living your life either.

[tastyfreeze]

Yes, everybody has a different starting point. That is life. Some families have the benefit of their ancestors working their asses off to pass something on to their heirs. That doesn't mean you cry foul and try to destroy the track or rig the race in your favor. You do the same as those people's ancestors. You work your ass off to pass something on to your heirs.

Everybody can do this. That is equal opportunity.

There is no promise in the rights granted to you that you will have 18 houses, a private jet, a yacht, and maybe an island or two. You are promised the ability to do as you wish to try to achieve your goals in life.

Yes, we should fix economic issues so people do not get destroyed by an accident. That is a separate issue and has no bearing on equality of opportunity.

[gambiting]

It strikes me as similar to the approach displayed by American conservatives - the belief that there is a natural order to the society, and that's just how life is. Some people inherit insane amount of wealth, and that's fine, their ancestors worked really hard so they clearly deserve it. Poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, or simply because they don't deserve anything else.

But hey. As long as we tell each other that with enough willpower they could just work extra hard and achieve all of those things that some other people get for free? It's all good.

And I'm not even against personal wealth. I'm not even against inheritance. I'm advocating for making sure everyone has equal opportunity through education, through safety in healthcare, through social policies that don't put you in crippling poverty if you fall on bad times. I don't believe in this whole "just work harder" adage, because I know sometimes working hard is not enough, especially not when facing institutionalised discrimination and lack of opportunities through no fault of your own.

>>Yes, we should fix economic issues so people do not get destroyed by an accident. That is a separate issue and has no bearing on equality of opportunity.

That's a social policy, not economic issue. And of course it affects your opportunities, if you get into medical debt due to an accident you don't have a whole bunch of opportunities that people without debt have, at no fault of your own. That is not a problem of economics to fix, it's a problem of the society to decide that maybe medical debt just shouldn't be a thing at all, which will put all citizens on an equal footing straight away. Or we can pretend everyone is 100% responsible for what happens to them and carry on as normal.

[tastyfreeze]

It is not a belief that there is a natural order in society. It is a belief that even if you are starting at 0 you can still reap the rewards of your own hard work. Starting from 0 does mean you are less likely to end up a billionaire. But, you can build your personal wealth and pass it on to make your "familial starting point" higher the next generation.

You are arguing that all these things are in the way of equal opportunity. I am arguing that they are issues on their own. Equal opportunity already exists.

High medical cost is an economic issue that is exacerbated by social policy. Insurance requirements and hidden medical care price both played into climbing medical care cost. Insurance companies and medical providers do not care about the high cost as both benefit from higher cost. There is no market feedback from the actual receivers of services.