[sokoloff]

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition.

(Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "this is what it costs to make something in the US".

[mboperator]

Seems like this is priced for military & contractors.

Genuinely hope they can find success in that niche. Even if their products never compete with the iPhone in ubiquity, having a domestic company with full stack hardware manufacturing experience is a tremendous asset both to the country and to other companies who aspire to bring their own manufacturing stateside.

[NovemberWhiskey]

>Seems like this is priced for military & contractors.

You would normally expect to see the magic words "Berry Compliant" if the target market includes that. Not super-clear how mobile phones would fall into that particular regulatory tranche.

EDIT: no, my bad, that only applies to (broadly defined) fabric products.

[walrus01]

> Seems like this is priced for military & contractors.

there are already a series of south korean manufactured, Samsung DoD approved android devices for that market. And similar from General Dynamics, as I recall.

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/solutions/industries/gov...

[prox]

Could it be possible they would run a specific batch for the military or intelligence industry?

[avs733]

Another way to look at it is

"this is what it costs to ALSO make something in the US"

you aren't just paying to the difference in labor, you are paying for the difference in requirement, documentation, redundancy, small market segment, etc.

It's like bolts for aircraft. I can buy the bolt for a couple cents at my local Ace. But to buy the certified one costs 10x+ because of the work involved in getting it certified.

[foobarian]

I find binning fascinating when this topic comes up. You start with a pile of 1 cent parts with a 10% tolerance, go through it and measure each and every one, and you magically end up with bins of 1% tolerance parts that now cost a dollar. The parts didn't change at all! And yet merely the fact that they are sorted gives them so much more value.

[sokoloff]

Another interesting story is that in the 50s and 60s, light aircraft shared a lot of accessory parts with cars of the era.

Cessna used the same voltage regulator as Ford. Ford accepted statistical process inspection for their parts. Cessna required 100% parts inspection for the exact same part.

Solution: run the assembly line for the voltage regulators normally, do the greater of the number of inspections required by Ford or the volume required by Cessna. Ink all the inspected parts with an inspection stamp. Now, Ford can use any of the voltage regulators. Cessna can use any of the stamped regulators. Both companies get parts more cheaply than if the lines were separated.

[bserge]

It's still a great way to do it. Instead of 3D printing a custom pulley for your hobby build robot, you could just use a standard VW part that costs much less and will last a lifetime.

[thebruce87m]

Indeed, and when you buy the 10% tolerance part you will get one thats close to 10% out because the ones that were better have all been picked out.

[Scene_Cast2]

This multiplier (800x2.5) seems much lower than I'd expect.

For prototype quantities (<100), I have consistently seen a multiplier of 8 or so, for the exact same spec (and verified within-spec after receiving the parts).

[542458]

That actually seems about right to me, at least for the type of mfg I'm used to. Compare low-run CNC quotes from Hubs (China) and Xometry (USA) - Xometry is usually ~2-3x the price. I've seen similar for IM prices although I have less experience there. One caveat is that in China it's relatively cheap to move stuff between factories (Say the part is made in factory 1, then painted in factory 2, then laser-etched in factory 3), whereas in the US as soon as you try to do that setup and freight gets really expensive really fast.

I don't know anything about PCBs or components, so I can't really comment there - maybe the multiplier is worse in that case.

One additional thing to consider is there are often grants or tax breaks for US or in-state manufacturing that can be VERY appealing depending on where you are and what you need done.

[tape_measure]

Can you recommend some other Xometry/Hubs competitors for hobby use?

[rjsw]

Your multiplier looks about right if you compare the Librem USA Phone with a PinePhone.

The $800 price point is already inflated so that it can be made in the US.

[seba_dos1]

Now compare the cost of individual parts between a PinePhone and a Librem 5.

These devices are nowhere near similar.

[wk_end]

It’s so cheap it angers me.

Given the ultra-integrated supply chain over in China for high-tech parts & the comparatively low economies of scale here, this is almost a worst-case scenario - and the multiplier is 2.5? Surely that isn’t worth all of the deleterious consequences outsourcing has wrought.

[bluGill]

They need a lot of customers to make it worthwhile to bring US costs down. Right now US production is mostly used for prototypes where high production costs don't matter as much as flexibility to make changes. If you need 10 made in the US that is good enough. If you need millions made in the US then it would be worth investing in all the things needed to manufacture something cheaply. With enough investment per-unit costs in the US can be lowest in the world - but few things are worth putting that much investment in when China already has most of what you need and the supply chain is shorter.

Everything I said about the US applies in some form to every other country to some extent.

[tashoecraft]

The amount of overhead to spin up a US based manufacturing process for an already niche item is going to be expensive. If someone has that type of hard requirement, they must not have many alternatives and should pay the premium for it. I'm sure if there was enough demand the cost would come down.

[walrus01]

I am not surprised at all by the price considering the need to manufacture something that's a totally bespoke design in very low quantities. The economy of scale factor that a giant manufacturer in east asia has access to is not available for this sort of project.

[EForEndeavour]

What's the basis for your impression that this "seems" a significant premium over the actual cost differential? I have zero idea of what it costs a company to manufacture a phone in China versus the USA, so I'm genuinely curious.

[sokoloff]

I've priced out PCBA (of a handful of boards substantially less complex than the Librem, of course) in the US and overseas. In volumes of 1K, the US suppliers were closer to 2.5-3.5x overseas rather than 5x.

In writing this, I just realized that I can't do math. I was thinking it was a 5x multiplier rather than a 2.5x multiplier, which seems pretty reasonable.