[gruez]

>If everyone has UBI, then everyone has more money to compete for the better rental properties

But people are only competing for rental properties because they need jobs, because cities are where all the jobs are. If getting a job isn't a requirement, they can move to oklahoma or something and get a cheap rental there.

[danaris]

In the short term, UBI—even a proper one that actually provides a bare minimum to live on—isn't likely to make lots of people leave their jobs for long enough to move expecting to live only off UBI. That's more likely to be a long-term process as people gain more bargaining power and the money distribution becomes more equal across the country.

[Chris2048]

I suppose this depends on whether UBI is supposed to be a form of welfare, adding a buffer against unemployment, and greasing the wheels of the economy; or if it's supposed to be a star-trekkian form of post-scarcity neo-economy.

Assuming the former; I see a big problem in that the desired outcome: "people gain more bargaining power" as unlikely so long as UBI is only a monetary pay-out.

power is relative. Universal anything can't fix that. It's like saying "everyone should be above average". If everyone got more money, money will just become less valuable. The only effect will be to piss off those with mostly monetary assets (who aren't in a position to sell-off before the change), and increase the value of non-monetary investments.

Instead, the focus should first be on the pinch-points, i.e. the scarce assets that money is intended to buy. Government housing projects, for example: leverage the large amounts of capital the government has by buying large lots of land and rapidly developing it. Create a large supply of basic housing w/ amenities, and allow this to apply market pressure naturally.

AFAIK, this is the kind of approach China is taking: large social projects for core infrastructure, high-speed national railways; entire cities built cheaply from scratch in remote areas. The large amount of capital pays off when these cities develop into more desirable locations, and unemployment/poverty is decreased.

[danaris]

Yes, power is relative. But with UBI, people gain power against corporations—because right now, corporations have massive power, and people have very little specifically due to our need to keep working in order to live.

With a genuine will-let-you-survive-indefinitely UBI, corporations lose that leverage over us.

[Chris2048]

> with UBI, people gain power against corporations

> With a genuine will-let-you-survive-indefinitely

I doubt that, for reasons outlined. Unless you address that, it is your unsubstantiated claim that this is the effect that UBI will have.

[danaris]

Oh, sorry; I missed that part of your reply.

I support a UBI that's paid for by increased taxation on the wealthy. Then it's not actually increasing the money supply, just redistributing it.

I also don't buy the argument that even with a UBI fully funded by printing more money, all the benefit would be eaten up by inflation (though certainly, much more would be than if it were paid for by increased taxation). I don't believe that's how inflation works in practice.

[Chris2048]

With respect, the original post was only "universal basic income is such an attractive solution compared". You've now added a whole new element: "If getting a job isn't a requirement".

If not needing to live in the big city was the case, then that would indeed change the desirability of various properties across the market. This would be the case, with or without UBI. There's also no guarantee that "Oklahoma or something" would stay cheap if demand went up.

But big cities are desirable in other ways too (lots of common resources), plus UBI isn't necessarily so that people no longer need to work; If people move somewhere with cheap rent, but low business prospects, they'll get stuck in that situation, and a different kind of UBI-dependant poverty class with arise.

To TLDR this: this feels like the "Parable of the broken window" - The mechanics of the economy are too complex (and unintuitive) to be captured in a few speculative anecdotes, especially ones as drastic as "UBI making having a job unnecessary" - this is effectively the economic equivalent of a "toy project" - a toy argument so simple if fails to capture the complicated and significant side-effects that such a proposal with have; Needless to say, the road to hell is paved with good intensions, some of the most drastic socialistic changes have been disastrous.