[TheAdamAndChe]

As someone who worked in a sandwich shop to survive while going to college($7.5/hr, 30 hrs/week), I can't imagine the universe some people live in where an income of $375,000 doesn't seem sky high. It's like there is a section of people who live in a different world.

I understand that it isn't much for an executive, but then that stuns me even more.

Edit: median US salary is around $70k. This executive's pay is over 5x median income. Those who say it's not a lot are disconnected from the way that most people in the country and the world live.

[nlitened]

On the same HN front page there has _just_ been a "senior developer drunk post", where a guy was complaining that full stack developers are being paid peanuts, and they deserve a compensation of at least 500k USD—and the comments were cheering "amen to that".

I don't understand anything about US IT salaries anymore.

[PragmaticPulp]

The $500K developer trope is getting out of control. The truth is that there are a small number of companies in a small number of locations paying those high salaries to a small number of highly talented developers. Once you enter that bubble it can feel like everyone around you is earning the same amount and therefore you can’t understand why everyone else in the US isn’t doing the exact same thing.

In reality, the number of developers making $500K is relatively small. Even in California, the median developer compensation is a fraction of that. FAANG companies can have admission rates that are more selective than Ivy League universities, and they don’t even hire in most cities in the US.

This causes a lot of compensation confusion and anxiety for young people who grow up reading HN comments and snarky Reddit posts when their first job offers don’t come anywhere near the $300K to $500K range that they read about online. It also causes a lot of grief for developers who think they’re overworked and underpaid because it seems like everyone on HN casually acts like $500K is the going rate for being able to spin up a React project.

[pmoriarty]

"there are a small number of companies in a small number of locations paying those high salaries to a small number of highly talented developers"

Are they really that talented, or are they just good at whiteboarding algorithm questions that they almost never actually use on the job?

[lrem]

A PhD and being good at whiteboarding (I've started algorithmic challenges at around 10yo) got me a L3 job. Which levels.fyi values at a total of $190k, but in my location was actually around €100k. Anything above that, you have to show something more valuable than coding on a napkin.

[PragmaticPulp]

It’s a myth that whiteboarding problems are the only criteria used in FAANG interviews. Being able to complete coding challenges is necessary but not sufficient for getting one of these jobs.

These companies that spend $300K or more on their developers aren’t keen on keeping under-performers around, either.

The idea that you can bluff your way into a FAANG job by memorizing enough LeetCode problems yet by somehow remaining an under qualified programmer is a myth.

[pmoriarty]

Ok, I'll bite, please tell me what makes your average FAANG hire so much better than the rest.

[dehrmann]

> FAANG companies can have admission rates that are more selective than Ivy League universities

I've heard this comparison before, but I'm not sure how meaningful it is because the Ivies charge an application fee. There isn't much cost to applying to FAANG and hoping for the best.

[MonkeyClub]

Oh, but US IT salaries are very easy to understand!

They're too high, though not high enough.

We've become the new priesthood. People who complain that sacrificing one calf to us each year would do well to be reminded that we're not demanding one child per year.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

https://www.amazon.com/Priests-Programmers-Technologies-Engi...

[MonkeyClub]

Spot on!

[javagram]

Probably not the same people writing comments, but also I think everyone has a bias towards being told people with their job should be paid more :-)

[jiofih]

That’s a joke. $200k is a high developer salary if you ignore the TC amounts thrown around which are due to stocks popping in the past 3 years.

[pirate787]

There are 3 or 4 non-tech or semi-tech people around every dev in most operations. It is easy to make the case that the devs are worth at least 5x and great ones worth 10x

[speeder]

I don't understand why people are downvoting you.

I am from Brazil, mentioned in the article. I see wages of 60k USD year as a dream job (by the way, if you need a C or Lua dev, and don't want me to relocate to an expensive place to live, I am for hire, for that price tag, I really need it. I currently make around 11k USD year)

[irae]

I am from Brazil, I've been working remotely for US companies for 4+ years. Here's some advice: Open an EIRELI type of company (not a MEI), find a job that give you equity as a person and a salary as a company contractor. Ask for no benefits. Should not be that hard to find a job, since US pays so much. You will have to setup yourself health insurance and other stuff, so don't go for 60k, as there will be taxes involved too. Ask for 80k minimum because of all that.

[NoOneNew]

I survived by doing landscaping and construction labor. You really know you're earning your nickels and dimes in the Florida summers when you work those jobs. Imaging a universe where people make $500k+ is pretty easy. I mean, let's be serious for just a minute. This is a tech focused community. Programming, IT, computer science, you didnt really get into this line of work because of the glamour, the guaranteed spot in line to heaven, or because a Thumbs Up equals a bag of rice to someone in need. Beginning at late Genx to early millennial, you're in this for the money. Gates, Dell, Jobs, and the other early titans are why you're in this. You wanted that and you know it. Now, the tech community is riddled with anxiety, depression and disillusionment all due to the golden handcuffs dilemma. Or just not quite cut out for the industry and not accepting that fact. Other industries at least are self aware enough to see the handcuffs and shortcomings. You're just better at lying to yourself than a stockbroker lying to the SEC. Being surprised that someone in tech wants a high 6 figure paycheck is like being surprised a bottle of Snake Oil doesn't cure cancer. Just stop and grow up.

[exdsq]

I'm in tech because I enjoy it. There's something fun about programming - it's similar to the logic puzzles I play in my own time. If we're on HN, probably on a bank holiday for most of us, then I assume if you read this you enjoy it too. I don't know anyone who got into tech for the money - much easier to earn more in IB/Quant Trading.

[mehdix]

I can only second this. I entered software because I enjoyed making things with little computing devices. It was unlocking many new possibilities compared to a non-IT job that I could never do otherwise, since we had not much resources in our disposal.

[TomVDB]

Have you considered the possibility that there are those who were drawn to that screen, and making it do what they want, at very young age, and never lost that sense of wonder and accomplishment when it did?

I do think that the sky high salaries are ridiculous compared to societal contributions of, say, a nurse or a teacher. But I also like very much that I get them for doing a job that I still do with a small on my face.

[IQunder130]

As someone who has been through school I would like to dispute the average teacher having any "societal contribution".

[strken]

I used to write computer programs on the toilet when I was in primary school, using an old thinkpad my dad got for cheap when his work upgraded to newer models, and a $5 copy of vba5 from a garage sale. My pride and joy was a reader I built for my downloaded webcomics collection, which I coloured lime green in a rebellion against all known UX principles. At some point someone gave me $10 for making a bootable cdrom that opened a webpage, back when computers executed arbitrary code when you inserted external media, but until university that was the full extent of my income.

I got into this line of work because it's fun. It's still fun. If I didn't get paid I'd do it for free, although "it" would be lime green hobby projects rather than the productive and tasteful work people employ me to do.

[ascar]

There definitely are a lot of people moving into computer science for the money, but there are also many people doing it because they enjoy solving the problems. I would argue the people who deserve the high salaries, the "10x" engineers, are more often the latter than the former and the rest just gets dragged along.

Personally I recently quit my high paying industry job and moved to an engineering heavy PhD position (HPC), because I enjoy solving complex problems.

[_game_of_life]

>Beginning at late Genx to early millennial, you're in this for the money.

Huh, this is interesting, maybe in some areas of America? But broadly speaking... Outside of America, no. Take a look at even senior dev salaries in Canada.

They're equivalent to master's of social work positions, oftentimes less. Having had education and work experience in both social work and computer science, I can tell you that if you want a stable, low-stress job that requires an "easy" degree, that MSW degree will serve you far better.

Not to mention that remote work is still rare. So that 90k senior AI research job, requiring a Phd at the Autodesk office in Toronto is... not great. Most computer scientists I know are happy with being middle class and just really enjoy the subject matter. Maybe this is rare in your area of the world?

[CrazyStat]

Just to be clear, ~$70k is the median household income. The median individual income is about $50k for full-time employees [1].

Of course, this only makes your point even stronger.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

[thrwy_sv_v_eurp]

I see you got downvoted, but I created this throwaway because I wanted to respond, because salary is not the same depending on where you live. Mine is an extreme case, but it is a real case:

I am a software engineer who used to live in the Bay Area but now live in Europe. In my country, my family is living off of a salary of 30000 (Euros, or about 36k USD). (This is my wife's salary, I'm not currently working). Our income officially puts us below the poverty line, so we pay 0% in income taxes.

With this 30k, about 50% goes to housing, about 1/6 goes to special needs schooling for one of my two children (they both need it, but the younger one's school is currently free), and the remaining 1/3 is for food and bills and misc. expenses.

We own a small, fuel efficient car that my wife drives while I bike or take public transportation. Our entire apartment runs on an average of 250W (servers, laptops, cell phones, electric stove) because everything is energy efficient. (LED lighting, double-pane windows, good applicances) We pay 10 euros a month for gigabit internet, 200+ channels, and unlimited calling to 150+ countries.

We live comfortably in a large (100 m^2) four bedroom apartment in a safe neighborhood (working class, but nice). We eat well, we can afford to go to restaurants occasionally, and even take the occasional vacation.

While we're not currently saving any money, because we have money saved up, we're not living hand to mouth, even though "technically" we are.

If we wanted to return to San Francisco, the budget would look something like this:

    * 60k Schooling for both kids
    * 60k Four bedroom apartment or split home
    * 30k Food, car, bills

Once you convert that to pre-tax in SF, you're looking at about 300,000 USD gross, just to maintain the same standard of living. That's a greater than 8x disparity in cost of living, mainly because of the social net here.

[a4isms]

> Those who say it's not a lot are disconnected from the way that most people in the country and the world live.

I live in Canada. I earn much less than USD $375K/yr. But can we agree that I am very connected with how people live in other parts of the world?

Good. Now let me tell you that were my employer to ask me to move my family to the US, ANYWHERE in the US, I would want way more than $375,000/yr to duplicate the lifestyle we have now.

That’s just how it works when you move from a place with a safety net to one where losing your job could mean certain death.

And in my family’s case, I am not exaggerating: My partner is a cancer survivor. What would we have done if we were living in the US? Hire lawyers to fight with insurance companies for her treatment? What if I was laid off and lost my benefits right when she was diagnosed?

SHUDDER.

Were I to live in the US, I would want to be stinking, immorally rich. It’s the only way to insure yourself against disaster.

[mynameishere]

What if I was laid off and lost my benefits right when she was diagnosed

She'd go on Medicaid. Anyway, quit watching so much TV. It's just propaganda.

[a4isms]

The consensus in civilized countries is that US healthcare is a disaster. If you want to brush all that off as “propaganda,” fine, that’s your business.

But I don’t watch TV. I do things like read HN. Where I recall an essay on the front page a few years back where a wealthy tech founder cashed out and then tried to buy health insurance for their family.

Despite being wealthy, they reported that basically, it was impossible to get insurance that met their needs. They did not say “no problem, the whole family got medicaid.”

Now tell me: How many people in the US had medical bankruptcies last year? How about the year before? Or the year before that?

I’ll let you tell me, since you believe that I only watch propaganda on television, and you believe you have all the answers. What are these medical bankruptcies, if medicaid solves all problems?

Is all this propaganda spread by smug Canadians to boost immigration? I think not, but if you’re prepared to cite some numbers showing that nobody ever loses their home because of cancer or some other major health problem, I’ll gladly read what you share.

[colordrops]

It's not high for a software engineer in California.

[malka]

And I do not see a good reason to give money to a fundation so it can pay such high wages, because California.

[colordrops]

That's your choice, and it's fine.

[pmoriarty]

Executives usually do things that millions of much lower paid people could do just as easily... such as attend meetings, give powerpoint presentations, hobnob with other execs over expensive meals, hire and fire people, and give orders and pep talks to their underlings.

Even if they were paid ten times less (or a hundred times less, for execs making millions per year), there'd be lines of people a mile long willing to take their place, and probably do their job just as well if not even better.

Corporate boards and investors are deluding themselves that they need to pay astronomical rates to get people who can do these jobs.

[dehrmann]

> I can't imagine the universe some people live in where an income of $375,000 doesn't seem sky high

It won't seem so sky-high once your universe also has $4k per month one-bedroom apartments and $2M single-family homes.

[OhNoMyqueen]

I think it was bad wording. Those salaries are sky-high, but they're about average for those kinds of positions.

[justinclift]

Any idea if the Wikipedia people getting those salaries are based in the US?

[SirSourdough]

Wikimedia Foundation is headquartered in SF, so probably safe to assume a lot of executives getting those salaries are based there.

[CRConrad]

So how about moving it somewhere else? What's so particularly encyclopaedic about San Francisco that it has to be based there?

[SyzygistSix]

In a large city, with two kids, this is not an extravagant income. It's certainly a very good income, but a position like that deserves good compensation.

[pmoriarty]

"a position like that deserves good compensation"

Why do they deserve that much compensation exactly?

The people who to my mind deserve high compensation are people who are risking their lives to help people, such as firefighters (who are often sadly volunteers and don't get paid anything), front line nurses and doctors, teachers in inner city schools or third world countries, Peace Corps volunteers, etc.

People whose job it is to hobnob with other high-paid execs over expensive lunches and give orders should be at the bottom of the pay ladder, not at the top.

[spoiler]

Maybe it's not that much for a single in parent of two wanting a life that's beyond "just comfortable"?