[ironmagma]

Social acceptance is not validity. Social rejection is not invalidity. Do we need to repeat it? Social acceptance is not validity. Social rejection is not invalidity.

> Everybody's got their brains and knives out to find any and all flaws in a paper to demolish it

Okay, what are the flaws then? Enough hand-waving, let's talk actual issues.

[somewhereoutth]

Oh it's all a bit more nuanced than that. The right kind of social acceptance (i.e. within a sub-society structured to seek validity) is a very good indication of that validity. That is why papers, journals, etc even exist.

[ironmagma]

It's a good proxy, but like all metrics, it's only accurate to a degree. There have been perfectly valid statements that were socially rejected, but that did not make them invalid, unless we are using a fun definition of "valid."

[geofft]

> Social acceptance is not validity. Social rejection is not invalidity.

Yes it is, otherwise the whole scientific method falls flat on its face. If you cannot expect that a person will identify valid and invalid ideas, what's the point of doing experiments and having people write up their research? If you cannot expect that a group of people will identify valid and invalid ideas, what's the point of peer review? If you cannot expect that the community of scientists will identify valid and invalid ideas, what's the point of doing science?

On what basis do you, personally, believe that the earth moves around the sun? For me, I believe it because the scientific community accepts it. Do you believe that it is at least possible that the sun really does move around the earth and the scientific community happens to be wrong?

What do you believe the speed of light to be? Did you just read it in a textbook? Who published the textbook? How did they know?

That said, yes, the process of human evaluation is very slow and very much prone to errors. But it fundamentally works.

[ironmagma]

This is why science is not the same as truth. It's a method of obtaining truth, but it has major flaws. That said, it's the best method that exists. That does not mean it is perfect however. There exists, barring relativistic notions of state, a true state of the universe, much of which will never be measured or known by science. This should not be surprising.

> For me, I believe it because the scientific community accepts it.

There should be a much stronger reason: that the evidence is available, and not only has it been analyzed by other people, but it should have been analyzed by you as well. If we just accept that others have done the analysis, this is how major mistakes stay undiscovered for decades. (See the problem of the phantom reference.)

> Who published the textbook? How did they know?

Yes, we have to trust that most people are acting competently and with good intentions, because it's physically and emotionally impossible to investigate everything, but for no other reason. We should do our best to look in to every claim, especially ones that seem suspicious, because that diligence is what keeps science moving forward.

> the process of human evaluation is very slow and very much prone to errors. But it fundamentally works.

I agree, but that only holds true if people are actually doing the work of performing those evaluations.

[throwamon]

> it should have been analyzed by you as well

This is nonsense. I'd love to, but I haven't literally dedicated my entire life to this specific topic as so many have, I don't believe I am smarter than the average scientist, I don't believe I can find flaws that the average scientist would have found, and I don't have enough time to test every single hypothesis that's accepted by the scientific community and makes its way into my life. I'm just going to do what most scientists do and focus on what I enjoy doing, and if that doesn't result in me completely revolutionizing physics so be it.

This "epistemological DIY" really only works for you if 1) you want to limit yourself to "proving" that apples and feathers fall at the same speed using highschool mechanics or 2) you're extremely arrogant and/or delusional.

[ironmagma]

If you can’t, you can’t, and that’s fine. But people who can, should. Knowledge tends to become siloed, and we always need to work against that; I’m sure the writers of physics and sociology papers, by and large, would appreciate a careful eye from a mathematician or statistician. We don’t have to be experts in each other’s fields to contribute to each other’s projects, the same way you don’t need to have a computer science degree to find a bug in systemd.

Otherwise we end up with situations like this, where something is plainly obvious to physicists but somehow never makes its way into an epidemiologist’s brain. [1]

[1] https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...

[throwamon]

I responded specifically to the claim that "it should be analyzed by you" (which I assume means "regular people" since geoft didn't claim to be a scientist or mathematician or anything). So now you seem to be agreeing with me and disagreeing with what you said before and I quoted.

The article highlights a far more difficult problem, which is to get people who are knowledgeable in area A which happens to interface with area B to trust those who are experts in area B. Which is precisely the opposite of what happens when someone who isn't knowlegeable enough follows your advice and is unable to notice their own errors in interpretation and understanding.

So yeah, I'd rather stick to trusting the experts (in their respective areas) 99% of the time.

[ironmagma]

I think Neil Tyson has the right idea in his focus on promoting scientific literacy, which does not refer to "believing whatever scientists say." If a scientist says something surprising, we should be at least somewhat capable of verifying that the research says what they say it does. Will you be able to verify everything, or even most things? Of course not. But you will come out of it better than you would have remaining standing in ignorance.

> someone who isn't knowlegeable enough follows your advice and is unable to notice their own errors in interpretation and understanding

This happens even with experts in their own fields. That's why it is supposed to be the beginning of a dialogue between the reader and the writers, not a research project that happens in a vacuum. Science is a collaborative effort.

[fatsdomino001]

Are you suggesting that the scientific method is actually a popularity contest? Seems dubious.

[geofft]

Yes. Who else besides the community of scientists is supposed to interpret the evidence and decide whether the earth really goes around the sun? The Pope?

[ironmagma]

The answer is, anyone who can. If you’re a random statistics professor but if you’ve somehow managed to build the capability to speak coherently about physics and mostly know what you’re talking about, you should be commenting on physics papers, regardless of the fact you’re “not a physicist,” because of your pedigree. You might find a serious mathematical error. The thing is, we tend to call people who do that in a way that’s good, “physicists,” so it’s a chicken-and-egg situation.