[March_f6]

I'm honestly pretty torn at this point which vaccine I should be going for. It seems like every week there is another article insinuating that there is some poorly understood, potentially high impact, facet of a given vaccine. Anyone else "holding out?"

[kybernetyk]

For me I'm waiting $N years till I consider getting a covid shot.

According to the oxford calculator[0] my risk of hospitalization is microscopic so I take that chance over trying out new under-tested vaxines.

[0] https://qcovid.org/

[kennywinker]

I for one value keeping my sense of smell and taste higher than the risks i’m seeing from vaccines - eliminating the risk of hospitalization is just a bonus

[squarefoot]

I don't agree on waiting years for a vaccine, however the loss/alteration of sense of smell and taste is temporary. It can last more than the other symptoms, but usually after a few weeks it gets back to normal again.

I got symptomatic Covid last October and the spike protein test taken at the end of March reports I still have several hundreds u/ml of anti-rbd antibodies, so I'll be reasonably safe for some time, but wouldn't recommend waiting to not immunized people. I had people dying next to my bed, and that is something I can't unsee for the rest of my life.

[op00to]

I think TV programming should be occasionally replaced with deidentified Covid ward footage.

[rangoon626]

You wanna force this on everyone? Cool. Then I get to enforce outlawing fast food consumption… especially things like Krispy Kreme donuts.

[squarefoot]

Forcing maybe not, but as educational tool, not unlike trips to WWII concentration camps for schools, I would offer a free visit to Covid wards to denialists and similar idiots. Once they see someone taken into a bed with a simple oxygen mask, then given a respirator helmet, then intubated, then pronounced dead in a few days, they probably change their perspective.

[op00to]

Krispy Kreme is gross.

[agildehaus]

I hope you continue to social distance for $N years, because vaccination isn't just about you -- its about protecting those who would be at risk.

It's also about reducing the risk of mutation. The more people it can infect, the greater the risk. We don't want to be dealing with a new variant that the vaccines don't protect against, and go back to square one.

Being scared of a well-tested vaccine over a virus that has killed 3.5 million worldwide and continues to do so is ridiculous. The vaccine is why things are slowly starting to return to normal.

[incrudible]

> I hope you continue to social distance for $N years, because vaccination isn't just about you -- its about protecting those who would be at risk.

Those "at risk" should already have been vaccinated before the people "not at risk" have been.

> It's also about reducing the risk of mutation. The more people it can infect, the greater the risk.

It goes both ways: the more people that are vaccinated, the higher the selection pressure to evade the vaccination.

> Being scared of a well-tested vaccine over a virus that has killed 3.5 million worldwide and continues to do so is ridiculous.

Spare us your shaming, it has the opposite effect of what you intend it to have.

> The vaccine is why things are slowly starting to return to normal.

Notice how the narrative is slowly drifting from "protect the vulnerable, prevent the collapse of health care" to "every child needs to be vaccinated as soon as possible"? This is not "normal".

[tehwebguy]

Actually, vaccinating all kids is normal

[Traubenfuchs]

Yes, with proven vaccines against debiliating diseases.

[bingbong70]

Newly developed vaccines for debilitating diseases aren't given to children indiscriminately en masse. We are dealing with a completely different scale here and we should be more careful about it.

Rushing the medical feedback process has huge potential downsides.

[bingbong70]

>Actually, vaccinating all kids is normal

Vaccinating children with 20-100 year old (~1-4 generations of human feedback/testing) vaccines is normal, vaccinating them with 1 year old experimental vaccines is not.

In my opinion, people in high risk groups (elderly/preexisting conditions) should take the vaccine, but low risk healthy individuals should wait as long as possible for more feedback about the potential downsides.

Older at risk age groups have lived a full life and will mostly die in 20 years, so side effects are less of an issue but having otherwise healthy kids potentially live 70-80 years with permanent side effects is criminal.

Waiting N years is the correct approach like somebody else stated. Don't rush to be a guinea pig if you are not high risk.

[maxerickson]

What is high risk and what is low risk?

We have about as much information about the effects of the vaccines now as we have about the effects of Covid-19, and they are generally better in each age group.

(this includes the blood clotting that has been attributed to the vaccines; the incidence is higher in people that have been infected)

[rangoon626]

You guys are brave posting this kind of thinking here, but you do have support for presenting this view.

[calvano915]

My fiance and I are holding out for same reasons.

[op00to]

Your fiancé and yourself are selfish, then. Your risk pales to the cost of spreading the disease to those more vulnerable.

[dang]

Please make your substantive points without personal attacks. Crossing into the flamewar style like this is guaranteed to make the discussion nastier and more predictable, which are two things we're trying to avoid on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[overallduka]

Vulnerable people are being vaccinated for that reason. Everyone has the right to choose what they will inject in their body or not.

[greenwich26]

Is your behaviour in this thread a coping mechanism intended to relieve your own anxieties and make you feel good about yourself? Or is it a genuine attempt to convince vaccine skeptics by shaming and scorning them with appeals to emotion and ad hominem attacks?

In any case, your arguments, if they can be called that, are very doubtful, in light of emerging evidence about the risks of the vaccine (see OP), and the diminishing infection rates in many countries.

[op00to]

What’s your risk of killing someone by catching COVID and spreading it?

[kybernetyk]

What’s our risk of killing someone in a car crash? Yet we still all drive.

[bsder]

So were the chances of two MMA fighters. And yet Covid ended the career of them both.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[kybernetyk]

I’d say that MMA is a pretty stupid game to play in itself.

[incrudible]

Which ones?

[bsder]

Apparently they have unretired: https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/5-ufc-fighters-suffered-badl...

However, as you can see, young and fit is no protection.

It's a roll of the dice.

[incrudible]

> It's a roll of the dice.

So is getting the vaccine. It is a risk-reward calculation with many unknowns.

The following must be kept in mind: For the younger population, there a strong incentive to exaggerate the risk of the virus and to downplay the risk of the vaccine, in order to maximize vaccinations and (hopefully) minimize overall mortality. I must assume that public health authorities act in the collective interest, not mine.

Personally, I am unwilling to sacrifice myself for the "greater good", even if it's a really small risk. My individual risk of contracting COVID must exceed the individual risk of taking the vaccine. As long as that remains in question, I will remain hesitant.

[alimw]

Unless you are a researcher in the field, there are certainly more important things for you to be worrying about. Just get a vaccine, any vaccine.

[incrudible]

I fail to see any logical reasoning here. This research suggests an unspecific alteration to your immune system. It affects everyone who gets vaccinated, not just researchers.

If you are young and healthy, there is a high chance that getting infected with COVID is harmless. Your body will deal with it in the natural way. Furthermore, the risk of getting infected at all is not 100%. I could make the same argument here: There are more important things to be worrying about than COVID.

[alimw]

> affects everyone who gets vaccinated, not just researchers.

If you understood my comment to stand in opposition to that obvious statement, then I'm not surprised its logic escaped you. Or are you just indulging in pointless rhetoric?

For most of us there are indeed more important things to worry about than Covid. So just do what society asks of you, for good reason, and move on.

[incrudible]

> If you understood my comment to stand in opposition to that obvious statement, then I'm not surprised its logic escaped you.

Let me rephrase it: Surely you couldn't mean that there is connection between being a researcher and the risk of vaccination. Therefore, what is the logical connection between the premise and the conclusion?

> So just do what society asks of you, for good reason, and move on.

I have a response to this, but it would be inappropriate to post it here.

[theshadowknows]

Sure. But you won’t always be young and you may not always be healthy.

[op00to]

If you get COVID, statistically you’ll pass it on to a few people. Let’s hope you live amongst less selfish people so your own selfish behavior doesn’t affect other.

[incrudible]

Statistically, I'm most likely to pass it on to 0 people, because the pareto principle applies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7674790/

Furthermore, the people I could pass it on to are either taking the same risk as me (which is fair), or they want to but couldn't get the vaccine yet, in which case they should be vaccinated first, not me.

[mattr47]

Source please? Just by saying "statistically" does not make it true.

[invincing]

R0 > 1 rings any bells?

[NullPrefix]

Trust the science

[bingbong70]

Medical science has feedback latency. Be careful about trusting brand new scientific claims that haven't gone through rigorous testing.

[kennywinker]

As far as I can tell the difference between the pfizer and moderna vaccines are negligible. The results of differences in their testing procedure and conditions - the stuff you’re getting is basically the same. So, unless you’re (in my opinion) wrongly calculating the risk from a vaccine as larger than the risk from the disease, the best shot is the one you can get soonest.

[count67]

Given a choice, I would choose Pzifer over Moderna, since it has fewer side effects [1], but otherwise they're both good and protect approximately equally against known variants. I wouldn't choose J&J or AZ if my age is below 60yo because of a very low risk of deadly side effects (clots).

Edit: unless my BMI > 30, in which case any vaccine is better than no vaccine, because of the increased risks of covid-19 on high BMI.

[1] https://www.europeanreview.org/article/24877

[hef19898]

Johnson and Johnson. Because you only need one shot and you are good to go. Immediately followed by whatever vaccine is available at the moment. Which leaves, at least for the next couple of weeks, with option three: none of the above.

So definitely not holding out.

[Traubenfuchs]

I am a fit man, under 30 and my Vitamin D, C and Zinc levels are high.

I have zero interest in getting any covid vaccine unless forced to.

[invincing]

Your strategy is not optimal. If you want to be efficiently freeloading, you should not be announcing your position.

Freeloading with vaccination only works if just a small enough minority of people are doing it. In order to minimize your personal risk from both covid and potential side effects of vaccination, you should be advocating for others to get vaccinated but not get the shot yourself.

If you publicly announce that you are not going to get the vaccination, that may encourage others to avoid it as well. That's against your own interests, because then it's more likely that you get covid when the vaccination coverage in the population is lower.

[Traubenfuchs]

I already thought about this and I fully agree! But I feel rather anonymous on this global message board.

I tell all my friends who asked for my opinion to just do what they please and lied to them that yes, I am registered for my shot. Which I am not and won't be, unless my employment or personal comfort are threatened too much.

I am also happy my elderly parents took the vaccine. A covid infection is probably more dangerous to them than the vaccine and now I can visit them without testing with a clear conscience.

[AnimalMuppet]

I... kind of was? I wasn't in a rush, anyway. Figured I'm healthy enough that I'd let those who are more at risk than me get their shots.

And then I went in to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription, and they said, hey, we've got this extra dose, do you want it? So I took it, just because I was there and it was easy.

[StavrosK]

On the contrary, I was excited to finally get it yesterday, even though I already had immunity.

[Daishiman]

Not being an expert in the subject, but a lot of the COVID vaccines are based on established and well-tested mechanisms that AFAIK, are fairly predictable.

[doggodaddo78]

I went with Moderna.

Just get it.

Analysis paralysis is the enemy of the good.

[PlotCitizen]

I'm also holding out

[mythrwy]

I'm waiting.