[Synaesthesia]

There's still a huge elephant in the room. How are we supposed to trust Apple, Microsoft or any other tech company when it emerged that they fully cooperated with the NSA and their PRISM program.

We have to just assume that's still running. Businesses could keep a lot of secrets from us and they're not transparent or accountable to the public.

[supernova87a]

Look, if you're worried about that, I don't know how you get through life without being totally paralyzed.

You live in the USA. All persons and companies are subject to whatever intelligence activities that we got a glimpse of which are happening.

You adjust your life accordingly and live on. Because I don't know where else you can go that has the similar benefits of being a US citizen and the environment we enjoy.

Or if you do, it's probably time to put your money where your mouth is and move there. There's not a lot of good in raising these impractical concerns when there's no good alternative or change you can effect.

[yosito]

> I don't know where else you can go that has the similar benefits of being a US citizen and the environment we enjoy

I'm honesty surprised that in 2021 people still believe the US is the only good place to live/be a citizen.

[chevill]

>I'm honesty surprised that in 2021 people still believe the US is the only good place to live/be a citizen.

There are lots of great places to live but the US is one of the best and easiest places to live if you're a US citizen.

Unless a person's native country is a legitimately bad place to live, living where you are born is going be one of the best options for anyone. There are lots of good places in the world to live but for non-natives its frequently not a guarantee you'll be allowed to live there. Its also not a given that you'll have an easy time living the same quality of life as you could in your homeland. Or be able to find a job that pays well. More importantly, its not always easy for a person to integrate and be accepted by the community in another country.

If I didn't have a family that wanted to stay I'd probably consider moving somewhere else, but there would be a lot of anxiety and uncertainty about my future for a long time.

[herbst]

This is all just Theorie or personal. I know plenty people that moved country (including myself) that face none of these issues and have no interest moving back ever. My quality of life is better, jobs are better, moving was not hard either.

[chevill]

>This is all just Theorie or personal.

It depends on where you go, your specific circumstances, etc. Its an objective fact that not every wealthy/safe country has open borders or easy immigration. Not all of these places pay tech workers anywhere near what they could make in other places, even adjusting for inflation and cost of living. Its also objectively true that not every such country welcomes outsiders with open arms, gives them equal opportunities, and allows them to become part of the community.

As an example Japan is a beautiful country and seems like it would be a good place to live, but they have a process for immigration that involves a points system. If you don't naturally have enough points from your education/experiences you can do some kind of charity work or get involved with various things that contribute to Japan. But from reading about the process it doesn't seem like I would be guaranteed a visa just because I apply.

I'm sure there are many places that do all of these things right. But I wasn't intending to make a universal statement to scare people away from it. I'm just saying that to a person that's thinking about it, those are all concerns that need to be explored before moving. And its also partially an explanation for why some of us stay.

Since you and your friends have had good experiences, can you recommend some countries to look into?

[sofixa]

> You live in the USA. All persons and companies are subject to whatever intelligence activities that we got a glimpse of which are happening

No, I don't, yet i use tech made by American companies, and my (meta)data was also probably lumped in there for use by american intelligence agencies, who have zero jurisdiction over me.

[Apocryphon]

Well, that's just rank defeatism.

[spoonjim]

It’s basically impossible for an American company to defy the American government. They can try in court but ultimately the government has F-22s and nuclear weapons and Apple does not.

[imposterr]

Thanks, now I'm imagining a dystopia where large tech companies have their own militaries.

[joemi]

If you want to watch a fictional version, the scifi shows Continuum and Dark Matter both portrayed a future where corporations ran the governments or were the governments.

[fragileone]

See the Citizen app that was front page a day or two ago.

[stjohnswarts]

This is completely untrue. Tell me the last time the US government used nukes and F22s on a company lmao. You always have courts and laws.

[spoonjim]

All laws are backed by the threat of overwhelming violence. If you have a corporate fine, and you don’t pay it, the state will seize your property. If you stand in your doorway and obstruct the sheriff, he will arrest you. If you resist the arrest with weapons, he will bring his own weapons. If you have enough weapons to require a military response, a military response is what you will get.

[miffy900]

What about Apple's fight with the FBI over iPhone encryption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...

It's definitely not common, but it happens.

[willis936]

If the military went against the law then they'd be rebels. The fed doesn't let rebels drive the tanks.

They don't need to use weapons to spy on citizens. The constitutional right to privacy was stripped in the Bush era and it's been open season ever since.

[trapped]

How do you suggest any corporation to not cooperate with government agencies? For US based businesses it's illegal, right?

And, how's this Apple's problem or fault? Vote and elect your interest. If you live in democratic country then vote and elect sensible smart honest representatives who will protect your interest.

[techsupporter]

To me, this is the most accurate point.

When people are upset that a company violates their privacy with the government of their country, I feel as though their ire is misplaced.

We had a time in United States history when companies were essentially more powerful than the government that organized the structures in which they operated. John Rockefeller, through Standard Oil, became the wealthiest and most powerful single individual in the entire world. He routinely told governments to pound sand. He was a kind and generous person to those whom he felt deserving or who treated him well. He was ruthless to those whom he felt had slighted him or stood in his way. I don't want to go back to that.

Does it frustrate me that my government is essentially spying on me? Yes! Can I hold Apple responsible for that? Not for my government having made those decisions, no. That's asking that Apple be stronger than my government when, given a choice, I'd rather have an elected government operating transparently in free elections than a company that's primarily responsible to its owners.

Apple can very much fight this fight on behalf of its customers. Every time Apple refuses to write backdoors into its products at the behest of a law enforcement agency here, Apple is taking on that fight. Apple will sometimes lose that fight, as it is currently losing in China. Apple, as a participant in United States society, will sometimes win that fight, too. But ultimately it comes down to the decisions that our government(s) make.

[herbst]

That's not exactly the point tho. I live in an actually democratic country where the government respects my privacy. However apple is not respecting my rights or privacy when I would use their devices. Ergo this whole thread is bullshit as they can't even protect any privacy from the state they operate in in their situation.

[BuyMyBitcoins]

I feel despair because my government is supposed to be upholding my fundamental right to privacy but, clearly, the Fourth Amendment is something that can be selectively upheld or discarded. So what’s left? For me to hope that some company will respect my “rights”?

[nemothekid]

>For me to hope that some company will respect my “rights”?

Is that reasonable? If the government is your adversary and you suspect they aren't playing fair, then it's only a matter of time before the government puts the pressure on that company as well. Either they play ball, or they fold like Lavabit did.

At that point you need to self host all your infrastructure as well as you can, and it becomes difficult to trust anyone else.

[herbst]

I don't get this either. Apple is a private US company, making every privacy aspect more or less obsolete. I can't even trust them to not leak private data to foreign servers, which is definitely not what I understand as data privacy

[Judgmentality]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary

Of course they'd have to want to do this.

[theshrike79]

A good stack of Apple's ecosystem is fully encrypted, so that Apple can't give anything to the authorities.

For example: Apple Maps retrieves routes in segments, with changing identifiers. Apple can't figure out where you navigated to.

[kart23]

This is laughable. Your icloud data is in the cloud, your imessage (if you choose to backup) is in the cloud, they have the keys, and they give that data to the authorities. And why should apple even BE storing my navigation history on their servers? You can even read their policies for yourself.

https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelin...

[theshrike79]

Google knows exactly where you have been, how you got there and where you visited and for how long. They use all of this data for their own purposes.

Apple actively tries not to know any of that as much as possible.