will you refuse to buy an Xbox because there is no competition for the Xbox store on the xbox? will you refuse to buy a Playstation because there is no competition for the Sony store on the Playstation?
(Microsoft is supporting Epic as well, yet argues that their own Xbox store should not have to open up either. Maybe that would be a good place for them to start?)
it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage and yet nobody makes such a fuss about these platforms, despite their exclusive control of developer freedoms on their own customer base... nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation, and yet these platforms are locked down even tighter than the iphone.
I guess it depends on what you think an iPhone is.
If you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a video game console, then yeah, you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is ok, because it's not much different than any Nintendo Switch or Sony PlayStation or similar. People generally live with those draconian restrictions, because it's understood to be subsidized by the exclusive titles, and arguably not of high importance (it plays games and media, it's "just for fun").
But if you think the iPhone + iPad is basically a computer/smartphone, then you probably think Apple's rent-seeking monopoly is evil, because it fundamentally breaks the promise those devices imply, and is wildly worse than any Google Android or Microsoft Windows device ever sold. These devices are considered "important", they get used for legal / government / business purposes, and not "just for fun".
So, is the iPhone/iPad a smartphone/computer? Or is the iPhone/iPad a video game console?
Apple's rocking the boat here by trying to have their cake and eat it too -- they want the sell something that is ostensibly a smartphone/computer device, but they want the monopoly control and legal treatment as if it were a video game console.
> it's always funny how Apple is the specific target of this rage. nobody gets themselves nearly as worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation
I mean, people really did get "worked into a lather about the evils of Playstation" too. Notably, for a hot minute, Sony positioned PlayStation 3 as a real smartphone/computer (and not just a video game console) with the release of their Linux setup, and Sony did get exactly the same heat Apple gets today when Sony restricted it, and then later killed it)
why couldn't the Xbox run, let's say, Office applications, if microsoft would allow it to? and why shouldn't it?
the reason it's a "video game console" is precisely because it's so locked down, is it not? why does that starting point of unfreedom justify continued unfreedom for xbox, and yet not for iphone?
do you not have a moral right to the free-as-in-speech usage of the hardware you paid for, when you purchase an xbox? if not, why not apply this logic to the iphone?
would apple's lawyers not argue, in the same sense, that an iphone is a phone first and foremost, a tool that runs a limited selection of utilities that people find useful in their daily life, not a general computing platform?
why should iphone be forced to become an open, general computing platform, if Xbox should not?
if the difference is subsidies, that xbox is being sold below the actual cost of hardware (debatable, but for the sake of argument) - is that not "dumping" (in the anticompetitive sense) to secure a monopoly and then enforce anticompetitive lock-ins in the software marketplace and keep their competitors out? How is that a thing that we should be backing, that hardware sold at cost must allow competitors and yet hardware sold via anticompetitive dumping should be allowed to lock out their competitors?
the logic you very quickly come to is that this suit is actually not about freedom at all, it's about publishers who want to bypass app review so they can siphon data without apple interfering to protect their users, and to bypass the revenue cut so they can substitute their own. Because these publishers have no interest in the freedom of their own users at all, and took the exact same revenue cut themselves until the day they filed the lawsuit (and will raise their fees back up a year or two after the lawsuit is concluded).
again, if Microsoft and others were being forthright, it would be easy for themselves to open up their hardware for third-party app stores. The Zen architecture has great support for encrypted memory virtualization, this is extremely low-risk. They most certainly will not do that because - unlike revenue cuts - that's not a change they can go back on in a year or two once the lawsuit is concluded. Once they open pandora's box they can't close it again, and they have no real intention to actually open it. They will argue for the lines to be drawn exactly where it conveniences them while inconveniencing apple - that xbox is a "console" while iphone is a "general purpose device".
it's merely a convenient argument to exploit pro-software freedom advocates and anti-apple sentiment in order to lever open Apple's fortress while maintaining their own, not actually an honest argument. Tim Sweeny of all people is not actually making a good faith argument here, nor is microsoft.
It’s effectively going to destroy all the permissioning and security that defines the ios experience, for no real gain besides letting Facebook siphon a little more data. They’re going to do the exact same thing they’ve already had their hand slapped for doing, and this time Apple won’t be able to do anything, it’ll be “if you want to use Facebook then side load this and give it full permissions, btw we’re revoking the ability to use the website for iOS users”.
You're out here explicitly arguing for a read-only world.
A world where every person is regulated to the position of "Consumer" and no one has the ability to create.
A world where you're taught to read, but the second you think of picking up a pencil to write, you're breaking the law.
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No one I know from the software freedom camp is absolving those other companies of violating your privacy or selling your data, but the two issues are orthogonal. You can solve one without having to have the other.
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Want to know something interesting though? Smart phones are the primary computing device in the majority of global households (Not a laptop, not a desktop - a tablet or phone).
No one gives a flying fuck about xbox because xbox is a niche product for rich Americans and Europeans. It's sold a whopping 200 million devices across all generations (original, 360, one) compared to the 2.2 billion iPhones Apple has shipped.
> will you refuse to buy an Xbox because there is no competition for the Xbox store on the xbox? will you refuse to buy a Playstation because there is no competition for the Sony store on the Playstation?
Yes. The locked-down-ness of consoles is exactly why I game on a PC and not on them.
This has been explained multiple times. Xbox is a specific gaming platform. iPhone is a general computing platform. Where all kind of business from different industry ( Not just Games ) using Apps ( or anything connecting to the internet ) are relying on it in the modern society.
> Xbox is a specific gaming platform. iPhone is a general computing platform.
You've got it backwards—the only reason the Xbox is a gaming platform and not a computing platform is because Xbox doesn't want to allow other people to sell software on it. It's a distinction without a difference.
I agree, if a user could check a box saying they are OK leaving Apple's walled garden they should be able to install anything they want on their device. This provides a path around the 30% cut as well.
I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want to take any chance of user ignorance reflecting poorly on them or their product experience.
> I think Apple's point is they think users are too dumb to handle that and they don't want user ignorance to reflect poorly on them or their product experience.
And I sympathize with this argument, which is why I propose calling the outside-the-garden toggle “Developer Mode.” Apple already has “Pro” phones and headphones. This is just an extension of that.
So when the user toggles the Developer mode they get a dialog box that says we can’t do refunds or offer support until you turn this off, which will delete any 3P apps.
My concern is that once Apple offers it, various companies will tell their customers they have to enable it to install their apps, and customers will do so and blame the fallout on Apple, regardless of any disclaimer.
There's a couple of things Apple can do to dissuade companies from taking this route:
1.) Suspend the device warranty. The warranty on your device is suspended while in "Developer Mode" or whatever it is they want to call it. They can make switching over to "Developer Mode" go through various prompts to make sure you're okay with what you're doing.
2.) When launching the app that's not from the app store they can popup a warning informing you that this application was not obtained from the app store and therefore wasn't inspected by Apple. It may contain malware that dames your device or compromises your data.
3.) Periodically popup a window for a running application that wasn't obtained from the app store. If you leave the app running then maybe you get a daily reminder that the app is still running. Maybe you can get an activity report of sorts for it to - so you can see what the app has been up to.
4.) When disabling "Developer Mode" then list all the applications not obtained from the app store that will be removed from the device. Those applications will be removed when disabling "Developer Mode."
I think there's a way to do this that protect's everyone's interests and allows Apple's customers to make informed choices.
The Xbox consoles have a model that could be followed here that would be interesting:
> Xbox retail consoles can have two modes, Retail Mode (1) and Developer Mode (2). In Retail Mode, the console is in its normal state: you can play games and run apps acquired through the Xbox store. In Developer Mode, you can develop and test software for the console, but you cannot play retail games or run retail apps.
Couldn't Epic, et. al still have an issue with this? I would see them argue that putting this behind a developer mode is still too restrictive and 'unfair.' Most user's wouldn't know what developer mode implies and Epic would have to have a list of instructions on their install page to show users how to enable it. That is not a small barrier to entry for many users. Not sure what my opinion is, just thinking out loud.
There are alternative App Stores for Android that put up with this, so it's at least better than nothing. If the store requests 'install app' permissions it pops up an allow/deny prompt, which isn't too user-hostile. Apple could do that.
While Epic is suing Google right now, it's mostly for anti-competitive measures other than this, like threatening phone vendors to stop them from bundling Epic's store.
Same here. Not exactly "not" care, in the case of unfair / anti competitive treatment. But in the grand scheme of things I am mostly fine.
I have a problem with Apple dictating their World View on me. May have been fine if they were apolitical during Steve Jobs era. But modern days Silicon Valley does not allow anything to be apolitical.
Technically I think it's possible to install whatever you want: as part of the developer program, you can pay the dev fees (which you might not care about, if you also don't care about the cut) and run whatever you want to build, and my understanding is that you can install binaries off-app-store with enterprise certificates. It's just a lot more tightly controlled.
Doesn't matter one whit what the actual cut is, there's absolutely no way to claim it's fair when you don't allow any competition in the space.
I won't buy Apple devices because you don't own that phone, you're just renting it from Apple. They own the phone.