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by dredmorbius 1853 days ago
The limits to various forms of energy are well-known. It's a bit more than I can describe in an HN comment, though Tom "Do the Math" Murphy has a good guide, index to his posts here: https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/post-index/ Heinberg himself has written of them in earlier books and articles.

Essentially humans have access to the fluxes of solar, geothermal, and tidal energy, and the stores of fossil fuels, nuclear fission from naturally occurring uranium and plutonium, and potentially nuclear fission from hydrogen plus a few other essential light isotopes and/or elements.

All other energy sources are either carriers (as with hydrogen as a combustion fuel), or derivative. Notably hydroelectric, wind, biomass, and wave energy are all derivatives of solar flux. (Fossil fuels are derivatives of past solar flux.)

Solar is the most tractable large-scale power source. The raw rate of incidence is about 1 kW/m^2 at Earth's surface. This is reduced by a number of considerations, including land area, spacing factors, panel efficiencies, and losses through conversion (DC/AC), transmission, and storage. The net potential is perhaps 5% of the total incident quantity. And there's the small factor that all other life on Earth also competes for this resource.

Hydro is proven but largely exploited, and has environmental consequences now increasingly recognised and often untenable.

Total wind and wave power (the latter is effectively nil) are small fractions of total solar power. Wind power is attractive principally as in places where it HAPPENS to be prevalent, the capital costs are low relative to energy returned.

Geothermal, while independent of solar, is a small fraction of the latter, and is already largely utilised where available and practical, though there's significant undeveloped resource in Africa, and in the US in the Yellowstone Caldera, though official resource estimates exclude this due to its protected status as a National Park. (Pointed, the USGS utterly omits the Yellowstone Caldera in its geothermal resource survey of a decade or two back.) As baseload power, geothermal is attractive. Capital-intensive "enhanced" geothermal has proved disappointing to date (see Australia's Habanero project).

Tidal energy is worth mentioning only because it's independent of the usual solar/nuclear axis: tidal energy actually represents a tap on gravitational potential of the Earth-Moon-Sun system. It's slightly more viable than wave energy, but save for a few very limited local applications, not practicable. Tapping the entire tidal potential of, say, the San Francisco Bay would not even power the city of San Francisco at current electric utilisation, let alone full energy demands, or of the greater Bay Area. And this would require entirely damming the Bay.

Nuclear fission suffers from a fuel shortage problem: known nuclear reserves would power present human energy needs for about 15 years, total. At present rates of utilisation, that lifetime is extended, but still comes in at under a century. There's the standard bickering about definitions of reserves, and talk of seawater extraction (of uranium, other fuels not being salt-water soluable), breeding (of plutonium), or use of thorium, under either existing or novel reactor designs. All three options have significant limitations, though some may be technologically feasible. The resulting energy system and economy would be fragile and risk-prone.

Fusion is as it's always been, the power source of the future. And always will be, as the punch line goes.

That's the lineup. Murphy has a good overview of numbers. Vaclav Smil in numerous of his books (Energy and Civilization and Energy in World History, an earlier edition of the same book, though with somewhat different organisation, as well as others) takes a deeper dive into many of these issues.

Mind that solving the energy problem is only one of numerous stumbling blocks between now an a long-term viable technological human civilisation. Numerous others exist, and the fundamental fact remains that economic growth (and its concommittant and requisite resource and energy growth) simply cannot continue indefinitely.

2 comments

> economic growth (and its concommittant and requisite resource and energy growth) simply cannot continue indefinitely.

Economic growth occurs in any situation where you increase productivity. But this means you can increase productivity in anyway, including by efficiency improvements.

Economic growth can't be sustained at the same rate it has been, but it can be sustained because while 100% efficiency is an asymptote it is approachable.

The assertion that economic growth can occur without an increase in resource consumption is one that's been made repeatedly, but that flies in the face of all evidence.

The story is somewhat complicated by the fact that primary consumption of energy and materials can be outsourced, giving the appearance of decoupling of growth from resource use. Once net imports and resource consumption at point-of-origin are accounted for, the connection is resumed.

Global GDP growth to date has occurred in lockstep with increased material and energy resource use.

I've looked at the relations myself simply using national GDP and energy use through about 2010, see: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1vlksg/economi...

And more robustly:

"The material footprint of nations ", Thomas O. Wiedmanna, Heinz Schandl, Manfred Lenzenc, Daniel Moranc, Sangwon Suhf, James Westb, and Keiichiro Kanemotoc. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1220362110. PubMed ID24003158. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/08/28/1220362110

"The true raw material footprint of nations ", September 3, 2013. "The study, involving researchers from UNSW, CSIRO, the University of Sydney, and the University of California, Santa Barbara, was published today in the US journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. It reveals that the decoupling of natural resources from economic growth has been exaggerated." https://web.archive.org/web/20130906063246/https://newsroom....

"wave power (the latter is effectively nil) "

~30 terawatts, about double the electrical consumption of the whole planet, is effectively nil?

" [tidal is] slightly more viable than wave energy"

Why do you say this?

Distributed over the length of all coastlines of all continents. The per-linear-meter power density is extraordinarily low. Wave power doesn't concentrate. Capital is extraordinarily expensive, and salt-water environments are hell on materials.

See Tom Murphy's analysis for more: https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/01/the-motion-of-the-ocean/

(He also mentions currents and thermal gradient power from the ocean. OTEC might be more viable IMO.)

I read his analysis, I found it roughly to be back of the envelope math and I did not think it was authoritative especially when he uses phrases like "my crude estimate" and "my stupid calculation".

The "per-linear-meter power density" what some would call "wave energy flux" represents an order of 5x greater energy density than wind, which is roughly 10x more dense than solar. When T Murphy describes "third string solar" he highlights that a quantity of energy is lost in each conversion, yes but also the density is increased. Similar to following energy starting with biomass, fermenting to dilute alcohol, and distilling to pure ethanol. In this case there is no effort or external energy required for incident solar energy to generate a lesser amount of denser wind energy, and for wind energy to create a smaller still amount of high density wave energy. However, this quantity is still large enough that even a fraction of it converted to electricity represents an quantity of power that I strongly reject to being called "nil" or "puny".

Following a thorough analysis and R&D phase, the important metric, levelized cost of energy, relates to the quantity of material required to construct a device that interacts with a given quantity of power. Operating in a more power dense medium favors lower LCOE. There are challenges with the salt-water environment, that fact doesn't preclude the existence of industries such as trans-oceanic shipping, offshore oil and gas, navigational and observational buoys, and other such endeavors.

Personally I consider it a good thing for an energy technology to be distributed throughout the world, I think it is preferential than having the entire energy resource concentrated in one part of the world. Another benefit it offers is that its availability is decoupled from wind and solar, the waves don't stop at night, and once established continue traveling without wind.

There is no silver bullet and wave energy is no exception, there will always be a finite quantity recoverable, and a certain cost to recover it. However, to determine those specific numbers would require a herculean effort to thoroughly analyze all of the possible wave energy converter designs - which consist of a number of major of typologies, and within each topology an even greater number of specific designs and sizes, each with their own cost and performance, which also varies depending on seastate - you would need to analyze every possible device not just for power converting performance, but for an estimate of suitable materials and construction techniques, and their costs. Only then could you answer the important question, can any quantity of wave energy be economically recovered at a cost competitive with other leading renewable energy sources.