[reputet]

As an ergonomic keyboard, it reminds me the dear old Kinesis keyboards. [1] I've met two people who use them. One tells it's a big leap from the classic keyboards and that the ergonomic keyboards are far more convenient (when you got used to them). The other person is not as excited about it. In accordance with his experience, the Kinesis feels different, but the performance for him is the same.

I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts, the QWERTY type have become a user habit that is really hard to change. Yes, Dvorak might be easier to type, but as long as it is not common, software developers don't pay attention to such a low demand and you have get around all the shortcuts issues that you face. E.g. Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row as well as the Vim-like "hjkl". And you have to put extra effort to maintain this matching.

Like the Dvorak layout, the Squeezebox Keyboard design is non-standard and I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks.

Nonetheless, I do like the concept of the Squeezebox Keyboard.

https://www.amazon.com/Kinesis-Advantage2-Ergonomic-Keyboard...

[dkersten]

I use an Advantage 2 and love it. I really like the Squeezebox, I'd love to try it!

> the performance for him is the same

Does he mean for RSI prevention? Because if you're using an ergonomic keyboard for anything else, it seems unlikely you'll get much benefit from one. Being able to remap keys and record macros is handy, but other than some remaps for comfort, I don't use that feature really. I do also use the foot pedals though (mainly for shift, although I don't always use it). Typing "performance" isn't thaat much better than other keyboards, but typing "comfort" is a lot better and I hate using other keyboards now.

> I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts

Again, for comfort (not speed), I switched to Colemak about 7 years ago and I feel it was a very good decision for me. Typing is super comfortable and OS support is good (OS X and Linux have support out of the box, windows does require the layout to be installed but its easy to do).

> Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row

Colemak was designed for this in mind. It keeps all the very commonly used shortcut keys in the qwerty positions: wqazxcv are all unmoved. Yes, vim hjkl is different but tbh, I got used to it quite quickly and also when using the Kinesis, I have foot pedal + (qwerty) ijkl (ie a wasd layout but on the right hand) mapped to them for even more convenience. Additionally, the cursor keys are in comfortable reach on the Kinesis Advantage2 too. I leave the keycaps in qwerty layout, since I don't look at them anyway and sometimes its convenient to be able to see what a key would be in qwerty (like telling you the ijkl keys just now, in colmak that's unei)

> I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks

Agreed, I don't think these alternative keyboards or layouts make any sense for a casual user. For a heavy typist though, I think its very worthwhile, if only to protect your hands from injury and strain.

As bsdubernerd mentioned, my favourite features of the advantage (roughly in order) are: thumb button clusters, columnar layout, arched keys, mechanical keys, foot pedal, customisability.

[m463]

It's a tough one... do you bow to convention or do you forge a new path.

I remember for years thinking that conventions on motorcycles SUCKED. One thing that bothered me was that using the back brake on a motorcycle required your foot, which seemed to me like trying to do surgery with a mallet. The gearshift was to a lesser degree inaccurate with your foot. Thing is, every motorcycle follows the convention, so you would have to figure out your own system, then modify every motorcycle you used to use it.

I was heartened when I heard of a pro roadracer who use a thumb-brake for the rear brake. :)

[_carbyau_]

Mick Doohan, world champion multiple times broke his ankle while racing. They figured out a thumb operated rear brake for him.

Now, while not exactly common in use, it is a commonly accepted option in racing. Current moto2 championship leader has a rear brake lever on the handlebar.

I imagine at the motogp level there might be biomechanical advantages to a hand lever but I'm no racer so I have never really investigated.

"motorcycle thumb brake kit" gets a few hits to buy your own to fit to your bike if you wish.

[raihansaputra]

Just off the top of my head, but having the option to shift your bodyweight using your legs is quite a big advantage. At MotoGP leved it's either they can exchange that advantage with something else or it's so advantageous everybody will use that.

[noir_lord]

It makes more sense to me to have the back break on the right foot, in normal (not racing) riding you brake way more with the front anyway, most people are right handed to having the make things stop lever be on the dominant hand makes sense.

But it is just a convention, Other parts of the world used different conventions until Japanese bikes exploded onto the market and we standardised on the current status quo.

[shocks]

I love my Kinesis. Could never switch back.

[raihansaputra]

I did have a Kinesis Advantage, but I did not use it that much. Very comfortable, but personally learning to touch type on Dvorak is the big difference for me. I can't say it's better than Qwerty. But it's so hard for me to break my habit of looking at the keyboard to 'cheat'. If only there's a QMK enabled, Microsoft-sculpt like keyboard, bonus would be TKL/split, and mechanical switches.

[bsdubernerd]

I've been using the advantage pro (first model) for more than a decade after using (and trying) a ton of other keyboards, including popular choices like the microsoft natural line, some oddballs like the ergomagic (now defunct), split-flat (goldtouch go!) and so on...

For my personal preference the advantage is the best. I've trained both with dvorak and querty, and honestly didn't see any significant difference in either. For practical purposes I'm sticking with qwerty.

What makes the difference is:

- Columnar layout. Typing on a staggered layout just feels very wrong after getting used to a simple columnar layout. You don't need to get fancy with the rest: this is the #1 improvement for me.

- Thumb cluster for modifiers. This completely changes the dynamic of how shortcuts are executed.

- Good palm rest and key arching. The position overall feels just right when either hovering over the keyboard OR resting on it. Sadly, this result in a big keyboard that takes a ton of space.

What I don't like about it:

- Very bad position for ESC and overall position and switches for the Fn keys. I would have done another row just above instead of their layout. - Bad choices for some key positions (I'd move shifts to the thumb cluster and move away home/esc, INS is unusable, etc). Overall the kinesis' choice is to allow easier switchover from a regular qwerty keyboard so I do at least get the reasoning for the layout. - Too tall on the desk. I wished they would shave 3-4cm in height just by removing the empty space inside.

It's actually an easy keyboard to pick-up and start to use. Looks daunting, but most people I've challenged to try can get by after a few minutes thanks to the familiar qwerty layout.

To remain on topic, I really like the squeezebox on principle. There are some very interesting prototypes shown in the page (the vertical layout is something I'd love to physically try).

I do agree with other commenters that some finger movement is actually good, for the same reason is not healthy to stick your hand on the palmrest while typing.

There are not enough keys IMHO. I've contemplated multiple times to 3d-print myself a kinesis clone and/or an ergodox-alike, but I'd probably go for 5 rows and 6 columns per cluster at least in order to have the Fn keys as a _part_ of the cluster.

You can physically ignore extra keys in such a layout. One extra column on the sides or top row makes no difference if you don't use the key often, so you might just as well have the extra convenience available.

Clearly, the same is not true in a design like the squeezebox. And I don't want to criticize the squeezebox for this. I greatly believe different people might like different physical approaches to typing.

[dkersten]

Regarding the things you don't like, my solution was to get the foot pedals. I have the three pedal one and use one pedal as FnShift and another for shift. I've then also mapped some common things like ESC to the Fn layer, so I can press it with ease by hitting the FnShift with my foot.

Also, for when I don't feel like using the foot pedal, I've moved some keys slightly: CapsLock to Tab, Tab to left shift and Left Shift to FnShift.

When I started using the keyboard, I also mapped lots of common things that I found awkward to the Fn layer, especially the left side that's completely unused. But as I got used to the keyboard, I've sound I don't really use them anymore and don't actually remember what I mapped to the layer, only really using my ESC mapping and the default numpad mapping.

[bsdubernerd]

I also have the three pedals! I couldn't get used to use them regularly as much as I wanted and I some point I simply stopped.

My mapping was/is ESC, Ctrl and Shift. Never thought of using a FnSwitch, that's actually a great idea

[dkersten]

It took a little bit of getting used to, but once I did, its been great. I don't always use it, sometimes I'm just not sitting straight at my desk and its seems like effort, but when I'm typing heavily or coding, I typically do. It makes typing very pleasant.

I didn't use it to toggle Fn, but to shift it (just in case it wasn't obvious), since keeping my foot on it is really easy and letting go is the quickest way to switch back.

[reputet]

Thanks for sharing it!

> INS is unusable

What about Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert? Or Ctrl+Shift+C and Ctrl+Shift+V can handle all the cases?

[bsdubernerd]

Yes. The [Ctrl|alt]+Shift actually feels more comfortable than a regular keyboard, since it's very easy to stretch the pinky and the thumb, and still have 3 fingers available (you can reach any other key). The same is true in both sections of the keyboard. Learning to use both shift and ctrl keys (depending on which key comes next) is something that takes some getting used to, but feels very natural.

The problem I have with INS is due to it's position, requiring generally the ring finger to overflex to reach it, making it unbalanced to use compared to other keys.