[dmitriid]

> I did. It's kind of funny to hear that you cannot even entertain the idea that people actually did declarative UIs before React with plain old vanilla JS

By you I meant "collective you". I don't care what individual developers did that no one knows about.

> Just because some frameworks were prevalent at the time didn't mean that everyone used them.

    define: prevalent

    1 : generally or widely accepted, practiced, or favored : widespread

    2 : being in ascendancy : dominant

> Large portion .. upto ... flexible about this today

Bears little to no relevance on the discussion

> React wasn't anything revolutionary on the framework side of things.

Except, it was. It upended the prevalent way of doing things and ushered in a new prevalent way of doing things.

    define: reovultionary

    1 c : constituting or bringing about a major or fundamental change

I did bring about a fundamental change: the prevalent way of doing things on the web changed.

> It's not as simple as "React bad/React good".

Of course it's not. But we're not discussing whether it's bad or good.

> it's just non black-and-white thinking.

So far your "non black and white thinking" is "everything React has was done better befroe React, but I can't show anything to prove this except some disparate things that are both complex and esoteric, and I can also go on a prolonged discourse about how some developers don't use frameworks and may have done things a la React before React".

[antris]

I already told you what I did and several developers did before React to combat the same problems the React addressed, but somehow you seem to dismiss all of it. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. I know what kind of code I wrote before React, your ramblings won't change it. Have a good day.

[atatatat]

This disagreement is related to discussing different things:

What devs can implement on their own beyond frameworks, and what frameworks mean to how the community as a whole operates.

"Defaults matter."