[throwamon]

> Family and friends don't give performance reviews and push other such metrics down your throat

Oh, but society sure is hard at work moving towards this.

Edit: I'm short of time, but as someone asked me to elaborate, I'll briefly give a few examples:

- "Networking" replacing genuine friendships; related things such as "cut out friends who don't let you grow" which may be valid but usually translates to "replace them with someone who will lead you to material success" (that is, "networking")

- Parents micromanaging their children's lives, measuring their performance on various tasks and rewarding/punishing them accordingly, often without regard to possible underlying issues (e.g. mental illness)

- Parents making children pay rent after they turn 18

- "Tinderification" of relationships, followers as social currency, etc.

My point is basically that family and friends are being replaced by the individual and advertising oneself.

[AussieWog93]

I think middle class society in the West has already reached this stage. I was talking about this the other day with my wife, after stewing about it bitterly for hours into the night.

The most common form of interpersonal interaction has changed from genuine offers of assistance to displays of status and evaluations of said displays.

It's unthinkable to do something as basic as ask your neighbour to "borrow" an egg or bring them some cake just because you have too much. On the other hand, you can sure as hell expect them to let you know that what you own isn't good enough.

The obvious conclusion to this shift, which is already playing out, is that people minimise the amount of interaction with others and we all become lonelier.

[kenjackson]

> It's unthinkable to do something as basic as ask your neighbour to "borrow" an egg or bring them some cake just because you have too much.

Really? This is a common occurrence in my neighborhood. Like it happens almost weekly. Is this really unthinkable in other areas? If so, we probably shouldn’t move.

[chasd00]

some people are jerks. period. If you were stewing on this for a couple hours then you probably had a bad experience earlier in the day with someone. Not everyone is like that, in fact, jerks are sort of rare but they do exist.

[AussieWog93]

>If you were stewing on this for a couple hours then you probably had a bad experience earlier in the day with someone

You've hit the nail on the head there, but what made me so angry about it wasn't that it was an out-of-the-ordinary experience but the norm.

[ReactiveJelly]

> The most common form of interpersonal interaction has changed from genuine offers of assistance to displays of status and evaluations of said displays.

I don't actually mind the lack of cake. There's never going to be "too much cake", even if the communists got what they think they want.

I'm not much of a gift-giving person, so if a neighbor brought me cake, I'd feel like I owe them something in return, which is a weird feeling I don't want.

And I don't feel any status pressure, because I never even talk to my neighbors. My lawn looks like shit, my neighbors probably know, who cares.

No, it seems to me the principal component is online vs. offline. The most common form of interpersonal interaction for me, even before 2020, is talking to people online, on Reddit, Discord, or Hacker News.

Most of my neighbors are not people who I really want to be friends with. They're mostly older than me, mostly parents, probably with no shared hobbies or interests. But that's probably not even the result of "modernity" or "The Whest", it's probably because I'm a programmer with no kids who moved into a suburb where people assume you'll eventually have kids.

So the upshot is, I have to drive a long ways if I want to see a friend in-person. Which puts a chilling effect on making friends at all.

I often miss the college dormitories. Everyone is within a few years of age, nobody had children, many people had the same major or similar majors, and everyone was packed in close with no need to drive. But you can't treat a studio apartment as a real estate investment, so Real Adults don't want to live in a place like that.

> The obvious conclusion to this shift, which is already playing out, is that people minimise the amount of interaction with others and we all become lonelier.

Yeah, I don't like it either. But part of me thinks, it's also just becoming obvious how many people are not worth talking to.

[floren]

> I'm not much of a gift-giving person, so if a neighbor brought me cake, I'd feel like I owe them something in return, which is a weird feeling I don't want.

> And I don't feel any status pressure, because I never even talk to my neighbors. My lawn looks like shit, my neighbors probably know, who cares.

> Most of my neighbors are not people who I really want to be friends with. They're mostly older than me, mostly parents, probably with no shared hobbies or interests.

Lot of assumptions in this post, and they all seem to be coming from you.

[throwaway2037]

"I often miss the college dormitories." Me too, for many of the same reasons. I think my social life was most interesting during my dormitory days!

[yoz-y]

> But you can't treat a studio apartment as a real estate investment

Why? In cities with universities a studio will rent out immediately and has the best cost to rent ratio (at least where I live)

[TeMPOraL]

> I don't actually mind the lack of cake. There's never going to be "too much cake", even if the communists got what they think they want.

There's always "too much cake" if someone in your household cooks.

Cooking and baking are more efficient when doing larger quantities. In our case, whenever my wife feels like baking, half of it goes to one or two of our neighbors, because there's no way the two of us would eat an oven shelf's worth of cake (and conversely, baking just enough for the two of us feels like a huge waste of time). Just having that option - neighbors who like my wife's baking and are happy to reciprocate with their own - means more good stuff is being made at home and enjoyed by everyone, on top of building good relations with the neighbors[0].

Local cooperation and sharing is a good thing. I think communists/collectivists were wrong in forcing people to share, against their will.

> Most of my neighbors are not people who I really want to be friends with. They're mostly older than me, mostly parents, probably with no shared hobbies or interests. But that's probably not even the result of "modernity" or "The Whest", it's probably because I'm a programmer with no kids who moved into a suburb where people assume you'll eventually have kids.

Being a programmer and having no kids is definitely a factor. Suburbs, probably less so. I've experienced the same in both large (1M+) and small (~20k) cities. I've learned two things, though.

- Kids change things - having a child means you now have a big thing in common with everyone else who has children. You end up bonding with other parents effortlessly - experience of child rearing is a topic that carries you way past ice-breaking stage. And it's worth it, because parenting is challenging, so mutual assistance is worth everyone's weight in gold.

- Being friendly with neighbors isn't about shared hobbies or interests, it's more about being able and willing to offer some assistance. That can be as simple as having a toolbox, or some life-relevant skills[1], or raw strength to help someone push a car, or even just being there[2]. I'm not friends with any of my neighbors, but I have a couple of people I can count on to e.g. borrow some power tools, or to feed our cat when we need to go away for a couple of days. And they can count on us if they need someone to push the car, or have their smartphone checked out. These are all low-maintenance, shallow relationships, that nevertheless simplify day-to-day logistics for everyone involved.

> So the upshot is, I have to drive a long ways if I want to see a friend in-person. Which puts a chilling effect on making friends at all

That's the flip side of suburbs and small towns. I get a lot of weird looks when I say that we want to move back to a large city, from the small one we're in now - everyone seems to go the other way. But honestly, small towns are fucking boring. Even having kids doesn't change that.

> But you can't treat a studio apartment as a real estate investment, so Real Adults don't want to live in a place like that.

This seems to be changing, though :). Not in the sense of living in one (which is a different topic - Real Adults don't like small apartments simply because they need more space, especially once they have kids), but from what I've seen on my local markets, small apartments are hot stuff. Probably because short-term rentals are very popular now.

--

[0] - For the same reason, I'm happy somebody set up a community fridge ~5 minutes from us. While surprise sweets are always appreciated, a surprise dinner less so - so if we end up cooking more than we feel like eating, we can just package the rest up and anonymously drop it off for the less well-off members of the local community. It's a win-win: it solves the food waste issue for people like us, and people who couldn't afford it otherwise regularly get to eat high-quality homemade food.

[1] - Of which programming currently isn't one - none of your neighbors are likely in need of an app. The adjacent skill of fixing problems with computers & smartphones is in huge demand, though. As much as I hated fixing other people's machines as a teenager, I'm now learning to like it again: it's the one skill I can offer to my community.

[2] - For example, I have nothing in common with any of my neighbors, but I work from home. Some of the neighbors now tell delivery people to bring their packages to me if they're not at home.

[kumarvvr]

Nah. I think humans still have humanity in them and are extremely tolerant of family and friends. Society places a lot of value and gives a lot of respect to those who help others get their second chances.

[chasd00]

> Parents making children pay rent after they turn 18

i have two boys, if they're >= 18 and doing nothing but laying on the couch i don't see asking for rent being unreasonable at all! Coddling young adults as if they're still children does so harm to everyone.

[throwamon]

Whether or not you're right, you just reinforced my point of there being some (maybe semi-conscious) scorekeeping happening, and the point on there maybe being some underlying issue (psychological or even social - we know young adults living with their parents is becoming a trend and I'm sure in many cases there's much more to it than simply "being coddled as if they're still children").

[TeMPOraL]

It's not score keeping. It's recognition that we don't live in a post-scarcity society, and our needs don't satisfy themselves. Labor and money are still required to keep quality of life in a household at a stable level.

I don't think turning 18 is the common boundary line here. Entering the workforce is. If you're making money while still consuming your parents' household resources, it's only reasonable to contribute something back. FWIW, I'd hope most people who generate income while living with their parents would recognize this as obvious, and volunteer to pay rent.

[srfwx]

So more like "Family is a workplace" now that the other way around

[jstummbillig]

Care to elaborate?