[nzeribe]

That's not true. Afropunk was a response to the question you pose. White people stole the rock from Black kids the way Ancient Greece stole the Hippocratic Oath from African culture. It is almost the same. Today, it's almost impossible to know Bo Diddley, Sister Rosetta Tharpe and other Black pioneers created rock in almost it's complete form. "History is written by the winners", they say, and our cultural memory is like a hard drive which has been written over. Show the typical rock fan footage of Black women going hard at a rock guitar in 1955, and they will profess shock. The re-writing of history has been successful. The "analogous new rock scene" you are searching for is called rap. It is rock music without guitars and for years in the early days, without white people. Think about Run-DMC in 1982, and how "punk-rock" they were with the stripped down sound and hard lyrics. Black artists were hounded out of rock music by racist promoters and a hostile music industry, and their answer to it was hip-hop. The history of Black music has been of flight, an attempt to escape white cultural aggression stealing their music and style without accreditation or compensation. Promoters defunded and starved out Black performers, and the answer to that is two turntables and a mic on the underground, sound systems plugged into street lights - where they can't get defunded, have control, and have no white people. The Beatles up until 1964 were almost identical to the Isley Brothers but racism in the US was so entrenched that Americans had to re-import the music on their doorstep being made at home through 4 white kids from Liverpool. How ironic is that?

[dang]

You're right, of course, although surely anyone who isn't ignorant knows that rock n roll was black music, and in any case Elvis (and countless others all the way—I would say down, but that's mean—to Cliff Richard and Pat Boone) were busy at that before the Beatles.

By the way, if anyone is interested in this who doesn't know the incredible story of the Detroit proto-punk band Death, it's sort of a glimpse into a parallel reality in which all this didn't happen (but it did happen, so they were forgotten for 30 years). The missing black Ramones, Stooges, Clash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwehxN2ipCU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAZ9R2t5Jd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIsE8TyNEL4

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/arts/music/15rubi.html?_r... ("Their musicianship tightened when their mother allowed them to replace their bedroom furniture with mikes and amps as long as they practiced for three hours every afternoon")

This interview is so great, everyone reading this thread should just watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vru_cgNnNv4#t=59m50s

[tptacek]

This is so great. "Dad! Why didn't you tell me!"

Of course --- no story about being lost to history, though! --- there's the impact of Bad Brains on punk/hardcore as well.

[aerovistae]

To be honest it seems very unlike you (going off your usual comments) to say that someone would have to be 100% ignorant to not know the history of rock and roll. I didn't know this, and I'd like to think I'm not "100% ignorant."

[dang]

I'd have thought that everyone who knew anything about rock and roll would know that it started as black music, but ok - the world is a big place with a lot of variance. I've taken "100%" out of my comment above.

The nice thing is that you have unbelievable amounts of incredible music to discover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=764iHBRjAVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_6gptd01mY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MouM59AbnE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McOmcNwqprA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJKe2j9Wjh4 (<-- unusually good youtube comments if you like that kind of thing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQXqkiKXiHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IlSP9vVpMQ (<-- not rock and roll, but the Animals sure were)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k68Fob0QA_k

Those are all songs that were done later by white artists who had big hits with them. How much money the original performers got is an exercise for the reader. I could give you dozens of other examples but, alas, HN has shot my memory.

It's important to know that in most of these cases the white artists adored the black artists and were playing their songs because they loved them—as musicians do. But it doesn't change who got the raw deal.

[nzeribe]

Thanks for the links, I appreciate this. I disliked much of the article, even if it was fascinating. Here's why: I can think of no joint venture in contemporary American culture where Black and White people built together as equal partners. As such, I thought it had a whiff of wishful thinking and horseshit about it. This was the era of hardcore Jim Crow. Martin Luther King leads the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1955, the same year(?) Emmett Till is lynched. For instance, the appropration of Doo Wop by Italian-Americans sounds improbable. It was created by Black kids in the 40s, but Italian-Americans were (are) not exactly known for their multi-cultural spirit. You can see it depicted in Spike Lee's film "Do The Right Thing". And that infamous scene in True Romance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZUJKXs6W-4

So how did this really happen? The mechanisms of cultural collaboration didn't really exist, but I would love to be corrected. I doubt it is different from hip-hop: it's built almost in it's entirety on the Black cultural underground, and some talented white people who skirt around the edges eventually learn enough to make a stab at the "mainstream".

[goto11]

It is worth noting that back then songwriter and performer were basically separate jobs, and it was very common for multiple artists to record the same song, sometimes even at the same time and competing on the charts. Hound Dog is written by Lieber and Stoller, the legendary songwriting duo, and recorded by multiple artists, including Thorpe and Elvis. The performer only got paid for their own performance, but the songwriters got paid for every recording (depending on the contract).

All this changed with Beatles and Bob Dylan, because they made it the expectation that "real artists" wrote their own material. This caused the idea of the "original version", and consequently the "cover version" which was a recording by any other artist than the original writer/artist.

So not to dispute that Rock n Roll was originally black music which made a lot of white artists rich and famous, it is still interesting to note how many of the songwriters at the time were Jewish. Just another aspect of the story!

[nzeribe]

I agree. Most people don't know, which makes me sad. Perhaps it's an opportunity for you to discover the secret history of the music. It's a wonderful and interesting journey.

[devonkim]

The roots and spirit of hip hop have always struck me as the exact same as punk - out of urban poverty and exclusion resulting in anger and lack of respect for the system (although the irony is that the Norwegian black metal scene was entirely a bunch of the most affluent privileged kids on the planet but their anger was over systemic control too). Today I see artists like Big Frieda as having beats and tones hardly different from what makes up a lot of extreme electronic music. Losing a lot of the credit for popularizing twerking must be disheartening on top of it. The whole New Orleans sissy bounce scene struck me as a strange term - it’s owning the identity of the musicians as endemic to the genre. I don’t recall any other sub genre popularly labeled with the musicians’ gender identity ever.