[asabjorn]

> The notion that DEI advocates have redefined racism to mean “inequitable outcomes” is a framing that has been constructed by conservatives and IDW types, but it is _not_ what DEI is about.

The second term of the social justice prescribed D(iversity)E(quity)I(nclusion) solution, equity, literally means redistribution of outcomes.

> The social justice side actually agrees with you and has just started an unhelpful fight over semantics. Whether you want to call is “racism” or “prejudice” it’s not like there is anything special about white people that makes it impossible to discrimination against them. That does differ, though, from structural level discrimination.

How are DEI programs, affirmative action and diversity quotas for hiring&promotion not structural level discrimination? These are policies and laws pushed by the government and corporations.

> The notion that DEI advocates have redefined racism to mean “inequitable outcomes” is a framing that has been constructed by conservatives and IDW types, but it is _not_ what DEI is about.

> DEI is about what _explains_ the inequitable outcomes.

There are more than 3 possible explanations. The most likely one is that your categories, race, are not well fitted to what you are trying to explain. For instance, Nigerians do incredibly well and are considered black and most of them came here not rich.

You are also comparing over timeframes that don't make sense. The america of today is not even comprised of the same populations, and the people that lived these injustices died a looong time ago. As recent as in 1950 89.3% were white with most of the remainder black. Today 60% white, 18.5% hispanic, 12.5% black, 5.8% Asian, 2.3% multirace, and 0.9% other.

Most wealth and status is also currently not gained through inheritance. Most get high status through education and wealth through work. This shows how bad it is that social justice activists push racial discrimination where status and wealth is currently gained through individual merit.

[comte7092]

> You are comparing over timeframes that don't make sense. The america of today is not even comprised of the same populations, and the people that lived these injustices died a looong time ago.

The children that integrated schools in the south are still very much alive, and aren’t even that old [1].

“Hispanic” wasn’t even a category in the census until 1970 (they were here, they just weren’t counted). [2] While there has been significant Asian and Latin American immigration in the interim, the stats you cite aren’t comparable due to differences in collection criteria.

> How are DEI programs, affirmative action and diversity quotas for hiring&promotion not structural level discrimination? These are policies and laws pushed by the government and corporations.

The government isn’t allowed to have racial quotas [3]. But I would cede that you make an important point here, that the proposed remedy mirrors the problem that is being brought up. I am not here to argue the virtues of such programs. There is a difference between identifying that a problem exists and agreeing with a proposed solution. My understanding is that you don’t agree that there is a problem, and that is the extent of my concern.

> Most wealth and status is also currently not gained through inheritance. Most get high status through education and wealth through work. This shows how bad it is that social justice activists push racial discrimination where status and wealth is currently gained.

This is a red herring, no one is arguing against education and work. Conservatives just want people to focus on those things in lieu of addressing racial discrimination. Also, treating inheritance as though it’s insignificant is a bit odd… 35 to 45 percent[4] may not be a majority, but it’s hugely significant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges?wprov=sfti1

[2] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2010/03/03/census-...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_Univ._of_Cal._v...

[4] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/01... "Inheritance Matters. An estimated 35 to 45 percent of wealth is inherited rather than self-made"

[asabjorn]

> The children that integrated schools in the south are still very much alive, and aren’t even that old [1].

The supreme court ruling that ended school segregation in public education was in 1954. On the other hand the people classified as white as well as asian experience racial discrimination by DEI education and company initiatives right here right now.

> “Hispanic” wasn’t even a category in the census until 1970 (they were here, they just weren’t counted). [2] While there has been significant Asian and Latin American immigration in the interim, the stats you cite aren’t comparable due to differences in collection criteria.

This is as far as I can tell an admittance that you are making comparisons over timescales that does not make any sense.

> This is a red herring, no one is arguing against education and work. Conservatives just want people to focus on those things in lieu of addressing racial discrimination. Also, treating inheritance as though it’s insignificant is a bit odd… 35 to 45 percent[4] may not be a majority, but it’s hugely significant.

The social justice prescribed DEI solution argues for racial discrimination in access to education and promition&hiring. So the outcome-focused thinking of activists are pushing racial discrimination which is objectively not a way to reduce racism.

For the majority that get wealth through educational and work merit being racially discriminated against in those spheres cause harm. Even for people with inherited wealth, how many would still have any wealth if they weren't also successful at education and work?

[comte7092]

> Even for people with inherited wealth, how many would still have any wealth if they weren't also successful at education and work?

As long as they have basic financial literacy around how to invest, education and work would both be unnecessary. It would be extremely easy to maintain their wealth.

> This is as far as I can tell an admittance that you are making comparisons over timescales that does not make any sense.

“Census data on race isn’t comparable over long time scale because of major methodological updates to data collection” => your statement is a huge logical leap.

> The supreme court ruling that ended school segregation in public education was in 1954. On the other hand the people classified as white as well as asian experience racial discrimination by DEI education and company initiatives right here right now.

And you are aware that school segregation did not, in fact, end in 1954, as I’m sure you read the article I posted on ruby bridges. It took decades to integrate schools, and in many ways they never were because of the way school district boundaries align with segregated housing.

DEI initiatives rarely advance strict racial quotas or thumb on the scale affirmative action policies. Indeed, the whole impetus for this discussion, basecamp, was an instance where people were bothered by specific behaviors they felt were discriminatory. As I’ve stated multiple times, I take no issue with you disagreeing with a specific set of policies pushed by DEI initiatives, but that is different from denying the existence of racial discrimination against BIPOC. The existence of policies that discriminate against one group does not preclude the existence of discrimination against another.

[asabjorn]

> As I’ve stated multiple times, I take no issue with you disagreeing with a specific set of policies pushed by DEI initiatives, but that is different from denying the existence of racial discrimination against BIPOC.

You are arguing that somehow implicit racism is stronger than explicit racism the social justice DEI solution furthers.

You also argue that on whole systemic racism through policy and habitual behavior benefit the whites that experience explicit systemic discrimination furthered by widespread DEI policies.

This is just not a very strong claim.

> As long as they have basic financial literacy around how to invest, education and work would both be unnecessary. It would be extremely easy to maintain their wealth.

The median pre-tax median inheritance is according to Survey of Consumer Finances (SCF) $69,000 [1] (the average was $707,291, indicating a small percentage get a much higher inheritance). So 50% of people that inherit get $69k or less, which is not amount that sets you up to live off that asset.

Any anticipated inheritance is also commonly reduced by estate taxes, attorney’s fees, funeral expenses, probate costs, and paying off the deceased’s debts. Having to share the remaining money with siblings, grandchildren, charities, and any other individuals or organizations in a parent’s will could further reduce a child’s take. And a parent who has remarried might leave assets to a new spouse, diminishing or eliminating what children expected to receive.

> DEI initiatives rarely advance strict racial quotas or thumb on the scale affirmative action policies.

This is not accurate. DEI initiatives seeks to increase diversity in hiring by changing the hiring criteria to hire more of favored identities (inclusion) while promoting favored identities to achieve equal outcome (equity).

But DEI does not apply positively to black viewpoint opponents of social justice such as libertarians and conservatives. They are by social justice seen as not exhibiting an "authentic black lived experience". This activism is a terrible denial of individuality based upon race.

[1] https://www.newretirement.com/retirement/average-inheritance...

[comte7092]

“> As I’ve stated multiple times, I take no issue with you disagreeing with a specific set of policies pushed by DEI initiatives, but that is different from denying the existence of racial discrimination against BIPOC.

You are arguing that somehow implicit racism is stronger than explicit racism the social justice DEI solution furthers.”

An honest rewriting of my quoted text using your terminology would be something more like this: “It would be reasonable to say that the explicitly racist policies advocated by DEI as a remedy are not a proper solution to the problem, but that is different than claiming that implicit racism doesn’t exist”

And yet you’re here claiming that I argue the opposite. At this point you are just arguing in bad faith.

To restate, As clearly as is possible. If you want to assert “while structural racism exists, the policies prescriptions advanced by overzealous and self aggrandizing DEI groups cross the line” I’m happy to cede the debate.

> But DEI does not apply positively to black viewpoint opponents of social justice such as libertarians and conservatives. They are by social justice seen as not exhibiting an "authentic black lived experience". This activism is a terrible denial of individuality based upon race.

You can easily accept that they have a viewpoint while also noting that the vast majority of black people don't identify as libertarian nor as conservatives. Why do you think that a minority should be able to invalidate the majority’s opinion? Because it agrees with your viewpoint?

> The median pre-tax median inheritance is according to Survey of Consumer Finances (SCF) $69,000 [1] (the average was $707,291, indicating a small percentage get a much higher inheritance). So 50% of people that inherit get $69k or less, which is not amount that sets you up to live off that asset.

The median inheritor doesn’t become wealthy through inheritance, sure, but they also don’t become wealthy through work & education either. Wealth is a heavily skewed distribution, so it makes little sense to talk about the median when 10% of the country owns something like 3/4th of the wealth. Assuming we are talking about someone who receives a non trivial amount of wealth through inheritance (ie enough for them to be actually wealthy, not 67k) then it is easy to maintain that wealth without work.

[asabjorn]

> An honest rewriting of my quoted text using your terminology would be something more like this: “It would be reasonable to say that the explicitly racist policies advocated by DEI as a remedy are not a proper solution to the problem, but that is different than claiming that implicit racism doesn’t exist”

Systemic racism just means inequitable outcomes, implicit racism is an "invisible" enemy invented to justify an equity agenda not supported by explicit racism, so I do not see how one can embrace this without embracing DEI as a solution. If social justice used the colloquial definition of racism, which it doesn't, it would be ridiculous to claim that someone is inevitably and exclusively racist because they are white.

I am not saying we shouldn't iterate using the liberal system where corruption happens. However, a committee prescribing outcomes based upon an every-expanding set of politically motivated identity categories is way more prone to corruption because the power is unchecked. A core principle of the liberal system is to check power as it assumed people are and will be imperfect.

> You can easily accept that they have a viewpoint while also noting that the vast majority of black people don't identify as libertarian nor as conservatives. Why do you think that a minority should be able to invalidate the majority’s opinion? Because it agrees with your viewpoint?

Because telling someone that they don't have "an authentic black lived experience" if it doesn't fit an activist mold is both racist and harmful to people listening to each other to find better solutions. It is simply bad process to prescribe a solution while denying any negative feedback, but that is exactly what social justice and DEI does.

> The median inheritor doesn’t become wealthy through inheritance, sure, but they also don’t become wealthy through work & education either. Wealth is a heavily skewed distribution, so it makes little sense to talk about the median when 10% of the country owns something like 3/4th of the wealth. Assuming we are talking about someone who receives a non trivial amount of wealth through inheritance (ie enough for them to be actually wealthy, not 67k) then it is easy to maintain that wealth without work.

I do agree that concentration of wealth is an issue, covid in particular has transferred almost 4 trillion from the middle class to the oligarchs. That said, historically countries that adopted the equity agenda have not fared any better.

However, if only a percentage around 10% rely on inheritance for status&wealth while the rest rely on education and work then forcing equal outcomes through racist policies in education as well as hiring&promotion are gross miscarriages of justice.