[cheese_goddess]

I have. Rather, the vegan I know didn't like the taste of meat.

But of course what I said had nothing to do with being vegan because you don't like the taste of cheese. What I said was, if you like the taste of meat and cheese so much so that you can't do without a substitute of it, then why are you vegan? If you are vegan, for good ethical or environmental reasons, then why do you need to eat pretend-meat and pretend-dairy? Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.

"I eat it because I like the taste of it" is exactly the moralising accusation levelled at non-vegans. If I have to go without meat and dairy to satisfy your morals then you have to go without pretend-meat and dairy to satisfy mine. You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.

And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.

[bromley]

Well I must say that sounds like some peculiar logic to me! But hey, I spent years performing mental gymnastics to justify the suffering I contributed to by eating meat and dairy, so I can see where you are coming from ;)

I used to love steak, and fish, and various other non-vegan things. But I became increasingly uncomfortable with the thought of where those things came from, and eventually I had to give them up. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. Having vegan substitutes just made it easier. I don't see the harm in that, neither do I see the hypocracy. I want the taste, but I don't want the suffering.

[tommit]

There is no hypocrisy in eating substitute products. The comment you're responding to is all over the place. Vegans can't eat substitute products because it goes against non-vegan's morals? I have no idea how one would arrive at such a place without some major projecting. In any case, the last sentence about people eating MORE meat because I enjoy vegan cheese is just bonkers and kind of sums up nicely what mindset they must be in.

Your assessment is exactly right and most people go vegan for the animals and the planet. You're also exactly right in the mental gymnastics most of us have partaken in before making the switch. It's a meme, but bacon is fucking delicious. I would love to continue eating bacon, but I couldn't keep blocking out the thought that this shouldn't go on like this. And if there is ever vegan bacon that comes close to the real thing, you can bet I'll be on that shit in no time, while simultaneously hoping I won't hurt any meat eaters feelings in the process.

[bromley]

I agree!

I'm not sure where you live but in the UK we have something called This Isn't Bacon that I find rather delicious :)

[tommit]

Too bad, I'm from Germany! I appreciate the tip though :) I also love that product's name and how well it fits into the discussion as a whole :D

[bromley]

It is quite amusing in the context I must say :D

In the UK recently we just keep getting more and more new vegan substitutes, and vegan options in restaurants. It's an exciting time!

[tommit]

Same here, the variety of products seemingly exploded in the past year. I ordered this dried-peas-paste, which just arrived today, from which you're supposed to be able to make burgers, minced meat, and meat patties that aren't burgers (we call them Frikadelle here). Anyway, I'm excited so I wanted to share :D

[cheese_goddess]

> But hey, I spent years performing mental gymnastics to justify the suffering I contributed to by eating meat and dairy, so I can see where you are coming from ;)

You can't. You have no idea where I come from. I never had to perform any mental gymnastics because I don't believe I contribute to any suffering by eating meat.

For example, maybe you "come from" (to be literal) such a place as North America, Argentina, or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and have no idea how to eat without meat? If so, then I grew up eating half or less the amount of meat you eat, and still do as an adult, I don't eat beef, most of the dairy I eat is not from cows bred in industrial farms, like yours, and I do not have to worry that I'm eating too much meat, or contributing to the destruction of the environment, as you would.

The bottom line is that you have some moral ideology that is yours and matches your life experience, but it doesn't match mine and I don't need to share it. And I don't need to make mental gymnastics to avoid sharing it, I just have no raeson to share it in the first place.

But I do have rasons to wonder why vegans, who don't eat meat and cheese, eat meat and cheese. Unless what they eat is not meat and cheese, in which case why call it meat and cheese?

[bromley]

So the meat you eat does not come from animals that suffer? They all live happy lives that they are happy to have cut short so they can be slaughtered for your dinner table?

I doubt it.

Curious to find out more about where you might be coming from, I took a look through some of your past comments. One in particular caught my eye:

> "I don't know how people can do that, slaughter an animal they've raised themselves."

To me this suggests that do have compassion for animals. This doesn't surprise me, because virtually everyone does. However, having compassion for animals just doesn't sit nicely with eating them, so we come up with reasons to justify that illogical behaviour of ours. Otherwise we would not be able to live with ourselves.

I am sure you do eat less meat than many people. But I bet that you would eat a lot less again if you had to personally slaughter all the animals you eat. Especially given how easy it is to not eat animals at all.

And in response to your last question, I think it's mainly just because it tastes good. Vegan meats and cheeses could quite reasonably be called something else, and I would still happily eat them. Though having them named as they are does make them more discoverable. I can see why that might make you annoyed if you are in the business of making and selling dairy cheese, and you see the rise of vegan alternatives as a threat to your business.

With all the anger you seem to have towards veganism I sense you may be closer to an awakening that most. Perhaps soon you will be making delicious vegan cheeses yourself :)

[tommit]

Honest question, are you really that worked up over the semantics or did you have one too many experiences with vegans of the pushy type?

I personally welcome the recent increase in vegan products and I hope it continues that way. You're still free to skip the vegan isle in the supermarket, fortunately.

[cheese_goddess]

I just complained about making assumptions about my state of mind, and now you're assuming I'm "worked up". Do you think that's OK?

[tommit]

It's a slow Friday and I just read all your comments. In short: Yes. I do think it's okay to make that assumption.

[cheese_goddess]

Well, I don't make any assumptions about your state of mind. You should learn to do the same. It will make you a better internet citizen.

I mean, you disagree with me so I must be worked up about what you say? What can I reply to that? There's only one way discussion quality can go after that, and that is down the drain.

Not to mention the casual sexism inherent in that kind of comment to users with clearly feminine identified usernames. "Calm down dear" and all that.

[SamBam]

This logic makes utterly zero sense. It can't be refuted because it is a non-argument.

> Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.

This is some strange version of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Why can you not want to eat meat and dairy and yet be vegan anyway? Why can someone not be vegan for ethical reasons, and yet still miss the taste of cheese? That makes them not a "true" vegan, in some weird definition, but who on earth cares? The person is still not eating cheese. The end result is the same, whether you gatekeep the name "vegan" or not.

> You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.

This is where you've gone off the deep-end. Eating a pretending sausage is not "murder," and whether you like meat or not doesn't suddenly make eating the pretend-sausage "murder." No one's ethics are being violated because someone eats a soy product, unless it's ethics against the eating of soy, which is irrelevant to this discussion.

> And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.

[Citation needed]