[coldtea]

>You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought?

The issue of calling someone "a liar / cheat" if they're not belongs to libel. Same way yelling fire in a crowded cinema is a public safety issue.

Expression of ideas is neither, and should not have "consequences".

>To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink.

So is it OK if a mob (not a legal or govermnet entity) stomped on you and beat you to a bloody pulp?

If a church (not a legal entity) asked its members to spit on your face and abuse you on the internet?

If you were immediately fired?

[msg3]

> So is it OK if a mob (not a legal or govermnet entity) stomped on you and beat you to a bloody pulp?

No - legally and morally, this is not OK.

> If a church (not a legal entity) asked its members to spit on your face and abuse you on the internet?

Morally, I'd say this was wrong, but legally, I think they would be within their rights. But equally, if I were to respond by encouraging my friends to protest outside the church, I wouldn't be violating their right to freedom of speech.

> If you were immediately fired?

This would depend on the country and my contract, but I'd hope that immediate dismissal would be a violation of my labour rights - not my right to free speech.

[krapp]

>The issue of calling someone "a liar / cheat" if they're not belongs to libel. Same way yelling fire in a crowded cinema is a public safety issue.

>Expression of ideas is neither, and should not have "consequences".

Both libel and inciting imminent lawless action are expressions of ideas, that term is so vague as to be all-encompassing.

And the latter example has been upheld by the Supreme Court as protected free speech.

[coldtea]

>Both libel and inciting imminent lawless action are expressions of ideas, that term is so vague as to be all-encompassing.

And yet courts all over the world are able to separate them from "expression of ideas" (here in Europe e.g. where we have and use libel laws).

It's not that hard either, unless we specifically go for edge case.

"X is a thief" can be libel.

"The climate is in danger/is not in danger and we should or shouldn't do so and so" is an expression of an idea, and can't be libel.

As long as you don't speak about someone in particular (a person or set of named persons, as opposed to ideas and abstract groups), and don't accuse them of being something criminal or derogatory (especially something they're not) you should be able to express any idea you like, how about that?

[msg3]

> "The climate is in danger/is not in danger and we should or shouldn't do so and so" is an expression of an idea, and can't be libel.

If I was an employee of a climate action advocacy group, wouldn't publicly stating that the climate is not in danger cause harm to my employer? Should they be forced to continue employing me despite that harm?

Again, I'm not advocating that this person should be fired, but it feels like overreach to say that it shouldn't be possible for someone to be fired for what they say.