[StandardFuture]

Not that my above comment was perfect, but let me attempt to be more succint.

> Monetary appreciation only helps

Appreciation of an asset only helps the holders of said asset. But "appreciation" is always an exchange rate. Appreciated relative to what?

> A deflationary environment explicitly benefits creditors.

And this is where my contention lies. This dogmatic condemnation of deflation ever being allowed to happen. Temporary deflation or even deflation for some extended period of time is not a bad thing.

Economic velocity runs on volatility and not what one currency or asset is doing relative to another. Inflating and deflating exchange rates only increase volatility. But, truly, only if both types of relationships are allowed and are not artificially snuffed out by government and/or central bank intervention.

And you assume that creditors are the only ones holding an asset? Credit is only one kind of exchange. Spending is another. Stock trading is another. They all depend on volatility.

Thus, I am not arguing for inflation or deflation. I am arguing for the greatest amount of allowance for natural volatility.

> in your proposed monetary environment.

I see that you assumed that I was arguing for constant monetary appreciation. I was arguing that there is nothing wrong with monetary appreciation.

It seem that you and others are deadset on arguing that all deflation is immoral.

My above comment mentions the common root of such views.

> Much like it's difficult for newcomers to buy large amounts of bitcoin.

Yes, I should clarify my bitcoin comments. Bitcoin is deflationary relative to USD (where most "newcomers" are coming from).

BUT, to add substance to my point it should also be noted that there are coins that outperform Bitcoin and are thus deflationary in their relationship to Bitcoin. A newcomer holding these would actually have more purchasing power.

I clarify this to stress that at the end of the day: consumer spending, loans, credit, etc. are all trading. And trading is what makes the economy go around. Volatility is good.

[pram]

Appreciation due to contracting supply. In a fractional reserve system, if monetary velocity is low enough the total supply naturally shrinks. This is the "pro-savings, deflation-allowable" economy I am responding to. Money can appreciate in the sense that there is literally less of it to be spent on things, in aggregate. It's a pretty basic econ 101 supply and demand problem.

Aggregate demand and supply is very much affected by currency and commodity appreciation, contrary to what you're saying. Additionally there is volatility, and there is price discovery. Today, right now. Things are already how you want them to be. The dollar depreciates and appreciates against commodities and other currencies all the time.

[StandardFuture]

> The dollar depreciates and appreciates against commodities and other currencies all the time.

Bingo! But, I do not see anyone complaining about this "only benefiting the creditors".

> econ 101

To be fair, I find a reference to very weakly approximating models of reality, taught to ignorant and naïve students for the sake of starting them off somewhere, to be slightly disingenuous.

> Appreciation due to contracting supply.

Contracting supply is not the only reason for appreciation. If we take that fact into consideration then your causality arrow of 'low monetary velocity' -> 'supply shrinks' -> 'appreciation' is one of many possible paths. Therefore, deflation is not what causes appreciation, it is in of itself a description of that very appreciation. Again, appreciation RELATIVE to something. You seem to be ignoring this very important fact.

You also created circular thinking. In a prior comment you said the deflation causes monetary velocity to fall, and then you say monetary velocity causes appreciation. Appreciation is where the deflation comes from. So, which is it? Deflation pops into existence and causes monetary velocity to fall? Or a magical appreciation occurs from a slowing monetary velocity and causes deflation to occur?

> In a fractional reserve system

Yes, in a central banking system the 'monetary velocity' is artificially controlled. Almost completely. You can push money into parts of the economy to inflate things at a whims notice. Then everyone loves that the "values" of investment vehicles are bigger than they were yesterday.

So, you are effectively only arguing for the status quo. But the status quo is not working. Is this really your best argument?

> volatility, and there is price discovery

Ah, word games. Even if someone might provide definitional differences, there is no objective real-world difference between the two things.

---

Here is what I argue for:

Not allowing natural (not managed) volatility (or 'monetary velocity') -- MOVEMENT -- is a fool's game. You cannot beat basic game theory that is dependent on the biology of humans. You just can't. There is no fancy economic jargon that can allow you to. There is no monetary policy that will enable you to. You can pitch and sell artificial manipulation of the economy (via economic theories or political ideologies) but you are only pitching bubbles.

Allowing natural periods of deflation in the economy allows for volatility, trade, flux, interest, investment, wins, ... and here is the most important word: losses.

Loss. It allows for someone to actually lose.

These hippie boomers have never had to lose anything in their lives. The artificial manipulation of the markets and the economy reflects this mindset and attitude.

There is more than one currency and that fact alone negates any possible argument against allowing deflation to occur naturally in the economy. If it occurs because of temporary "contracting supply" (of one currency) then so be it.

[pram]

Money isn't a natural phenomenon. You say it's unnatural for a central bank or government to intervene, but it's their currency. Its existence is inherently political, and serves an interest or policy goal. Be it capital accumulation to boomers or whatever else. They can also pick losers, if they really wanted. Look at Lehman Brothers.

The dollar, and its associated monetary policy, isn't something that has been perverted by evil external forces. I'm arguing the 'status quo' because thats how it was intentionally designed and thats how it intentionally works. Not wasting my time describing some fanciful alternative perfect system

[StandardFuture]

> Money isn't a natural phenomenon.

Asset trading is about as natural to human civilization as you can get. Having a socially accepted intermediary asset is not much beyond that. Simply saying its not a "natural phenomenon" is not a mathematical or scientific self-validating statement. It's just a statement.

> it's their currency.

Yes, and literally anyone can create a currency out of thin air. Other people will use it if they decide to assign it value.

> Its existence is inherently political

No, It's existence is civilizational. It technologically fulfills the ability to have high transaction rates of an increasing population that other assets can not satisfy. the ability to transact more easily and more quickly is what determines the bounds of the potential of an economy. So, of course, all major civilizations have utilized this technological tool for political means. As a way to increase and concentrate power through economics.

This is fundamentally different from intermediary assets being constructed initially as a political tool. Money is technology. It is not politics. Like literally any other technology it can be used politically.

> isn't something that has been perverted by evil external forces

I am not sure what insanity you are trying to project onto me, but I never even came close to implying anything along these lines. You should attempt to avoid fallacious arguments a little harder.

> some fanciful alternative perfect system

You mean like your supposedly perfectly controlled and singular monetary systems with artificial inflation hoses? Have you seen the economy?

If this is your dream economic system then why not live in China with even more inflation and more centralization? Or maybe you already do. Genuine question, nonetheless.

[pram]

I think you're the one doing a fair amount of projection my guy. My dream economic system? lol

[StandardFuture]

I am not your guy, buddy.