[srndsnd]

I'm confused as to why this headline has to be so close to clickbait. I'm not even one to stand up for people like Lambda, I think a lot of bootcamps are shady at best, and actively deceptive at worst (Trilogy).

It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? Is the point here that there was a population of Lambda students who weren't aware they could discharge their loan, and this contract prevision was preventing them from doing so? Or was the school deliberately making that process more difficult? The article makes none of that entirely clear.

On the whole this doesn't scream "deceptive educational financing practices" to me. That sounds like a government agency press release making a mountain out of a molehill and trying to knock Lambda down a peg, but I might be wrong.

Edit: after reading how dischargeability impacts people's ability to take out the loan in the first place, yeah, this matters quite a bit, and I was wrong because I didn't understand how education financing works. I'll own that. Seems Lambda was being less than equitable in how they approached the matter, and hoping no one would notice.

[jfrunyon]

> It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? Is the point here that there was a population of Lambda students who weren't aware they could discharge their loan, and this contract prevision was preventing them from doing so? Or was the school deliberately making that process more difficult? The article makes none of that entirely clear.

It makes it quite clear. The loan has always been dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, they had a provision in their contract stating otherwise, which was deceptive.

[musicale]

Although it is harder to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, as I understand it they can be discharged in bankruptcy if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment) or if 7 years have elapsed since the start of repayment.

This does seem to violate the spirit of bankruptcy law as well as basic economics (presumably student loans consist of and are repaid with the same dollars that are used for other loans or unsecured debt) and has almost certainly helped universities raise tuition with impunity for decades while student loan debt has ballooned to more than $1T in the US.

[tptacek]

The reasons you make allusions to education debt in a contract like this is that students have priors about whether student loans are dischargeable, and the company wants to capitalize on those priors. That's the deception.

[kelnos]

You can thank a truly gross lobbying effort that culminated in a bill[0] passed in 2005 intended to curb "bankruptcy abuse" (a thing that was not actually a thing), and, among other things, greatly restricted how educational loans could be discharged in bankruptcy.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_an...

[jfrunyon]

> if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment)

Yeah, it's pretty hard to do. You have to have an "adversarial proceeding" (i.e. a lawyer from the Department of Education or whoever shows up and argues against you).

[elliekelly]

“Deceptive practices” is a commonly used legal term in consumer protection. It’s often used in conjunction with “unfair business practices” or “unfair and deceptive practices” depending on the state and what has been alleged.

[pkdpic_y9k]

Totally valid but just feel like I have to throw in that I went to a bootcamp, was very suspicious from the earliest stages of consideration but found on the other side that all the friends I made there who attended-even the one that failed out and went to another bootcamp-went from part time jobs making less than 30k a year to legit software engineering positions making 60~120k in less than a year. Im still surprised that the whole thing wasn't a scam. That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now in terms of job placement, not sure how places like lambda differ...

[brigandish]

> That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now

You're allowed to say who it is - in fact, I think you should say who it is, reward quality and hard work!

Also, you might mention who does the ranking (possibly more important).

[Siira]

Naming them substantially decreases the credibility of the post, and increases the probability of it being an ad. Better not to name them.

[blaser-waffle]

Name and Shame -- who was this shady org?

[detaro]

If you agree that it's an important detail, how is misrepresenting their status in the contract, and thus misleading people about their rights, not deceptive?

[aerosmile]

You're right and wrong. You already touched on the latter in your edit, so let's focus on the former for a sec. I was not surprised at all to see your comment, since I walked away with the same impression - someone at a gov agency tried harder than usual to achieve the max juice out of this release. Learning in this thread that this is a brand new agency and that this might have been the very first case they were tasked with (hope I got that right), helped me complete the full picture.

[ClumsyPilot]

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy."

To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery.

In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

[timavr]

For starters there are two types of loans in the system, federal(92%) and private(8%).

Federal is less of a loan, but more a subsidy that you have to repay at later date if you can. There is no market mechanism involved, government sets the terms and rules. Overall if you have your shit together(push paperwork on time), it is nearly impossible to default on that type of a loan. So for all intense and purposes, those loans are just another hidden tax.

The benefits of this system is arguable, but for America where people hate to pay taxes and government needs to put people through college, this is not a bad option.

But... There are two massive problems in the system, private loans and the way colleges charge for education. First a lot of colleges are free to set fees any way they like, as a result in many cases federal loans are not enough and people are forced to take private loans. The problem with private loans, that they are completely market driven(higher, fees, higher costs, depends on your assets etc), but you can't get rid off them via bankruptcy which is absolutely nuts.

Overall the whole system regardless of country is very unfair and regressive in nature(poor people pay more then rich) and represents an example of broken social contract between government and its citizens. As student debt skyrockets, it also impacts the broader economy and forces people to go into debt to pay day to day expenses.

But maybe it is all by design. It is much easier to control people if they are in debt very early on in live vs debt free.

[disgruntledphd2]

In order for modern society to keep working you need those people to get into mortgage debt, as that's (combined with children) the most effective way to keep people employed.

Even from the mustache-twirling evil perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense to burden people with debt before they have even started to earn money to repay it.

[cat199]

good points.

being 'that guy' and pointing out that it's not:

> intense and purposes

but 'intents and purposes'.

a common eggcorn.

[koolba]

The argument for it is that without it a graduate with a large balance could default on their loan immediately after graduation. The classic example being a surgeon getting hundreds of thousands in loans for medical school, and then skipping out on paying them back when they begin making bank as a doctor.

[raverbashing]

Yes and it's a BS argument, because going through bankruptcy is not something to be taken lightly or something that you can "just do", because it's not only about "you owe X" but how well can you service your debt.

Of course this argument was an excuse to inflate education prices and make lenders more interest as well.

[istjohn]

I'm honestly curious why this isn't a problem in the UK. What are we missing?

[lawtalkinghuman]

Historically, it is because UK government-backed student loans (for English students: no student fees in Scotland after all) are (a) low-interest, (b) only repayable on money earned above a particular salary threshold, and (c) automatically gets written off eventually after a specified period (was 25 years, now 30 years).

(a) is arguably not really true anymore (given some graduates are paying 5% interest), but (b) is even more true now than it was under the old (Plan 1) scheme because the salary threshold is now £27,295 (compared to the old one of £19,985).

[alasdair_]

When I went to university in the UK for CS (20 years ago), my total student loan debt was close to zero. Indeed, they gave me money to study.

Even now, the cost for something like a medical degree is negligible compared to the USA where $400K for medical school and undergraduate is not unheard of. (A medical degree is an undergraduate degree in the UK)

[lmm]

UK student "loans" aren't dischargeable in bankruptcy either - legally they're a tax rather than a loan.

[reitanuki]

Thank you! A lot of people seem totally incapable of grasping the fact that it's more of a tax rather than a loan. I'm glad it's not just me who has remarked this — I've been very unsuccessful in explaining it to people who shudder at it and treat it as any other loan...

[dragonwriter]

It’s not a problem anywhere, it was just an excuse for a handout to the financial industry in 2005.

[peteretep]

I note this is the case in the UK too tho: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/debt-soluti...

[AdrianB1]

In my country personal bankruptcy does not exist, never did. For us the idea that in a 'free country' one can take a loan and declare bankruptcy not to pay it back sounds crazy. This is evidence of cultural differences, nothing else - definitely not 'free country' or education.

[luckylion]

> But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy?

That's the point, I believe. Lambda School was pretending their loans were protected from bankruptcy proceedings so students wouldn't consider it.

It's somewhat common for corporations to pretend that laws don't exist. Even if only half of the customers believe them and don't sue, they'll save money.

[threatofrain]

https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2021/04/CFP...

[pugio]

Could you comment a bit more about Trilogy? From what I understand, they provide a bootcamp as a service to be offered by other institutions, such as universities around the world.

Do you have any personal experience of their deception or lack of quality?

[lai-yin]

I was a student at Trilogy. Not sure what they mean. The course was fun. The good students leveled up in their careers. I certainly did.

[pugio]

Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)

[mox1]

Agreed hopefully we get a response. I was an instructor for Trilogy, didn't really see any 'deceptive practices' in my couple years there.

[bdcravens]

For many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.

[pugio]

Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)

[songqin]

What do you specifically find deceptive about Trilogy? Just curious, as I see them around me a lot.

[bdcravens]

I can't speak to Trilogy specifically, but for many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.

[Ansil849]

> padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.

I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?

[bdcravens]

People pay for a bootcamp for a developer job (with a developer salary), not a teacher's aid job (where they are undoubtedly not paying the salaries they also use in their marketing to attract students). Thus they assume that number reflects the career the bootcamp is promising.

[boldslogan]

Because the only way that would continue to work is they got more new students (at the bottom) to pay for the old students (at the top) jobs and it (the pyramid) would fall apart.

In other words it looks like a pyramid scheme if the grads only get jobs as teachers.

[gen220]

FWIW, many teachers are only at bootcamps for a year or two before moving on to work for normal companies. I didn’t go through a boot camp, but I do work with people who did and were teachers at those boot camps before working here.

From what I understand, teaching is generally seen as a positive signal (if the boot camp is a good one), because it means they know the material well enough to teach it.

I can totally imagine the opposite becoming true (teaching is a negative signal), creating a positive feedback loop in the opposite direction, and turning the boot camp into a pyramid scheme.

I guess it all depends on the credibility of the boot camp, kind of analogous to universities, as a sibling commenter points out.

[bdcravens]

This all may be true, but hand waves away the point: students don't know this going in; they assume the high cost will get them a developer salary much sooner than is true. The marketing should be more transparent about this, and if it were, how many students would rethink the costs with a longer ROI?

[tootahe45]

You just described 80% of the tertiary education courses unis offer.

[blaser-waffle]

Lol yeah sounds like grad school.

"Congrats on getting into the program, you're now adjunct faculty, the class you're teaching starts at 930am Monday."

5 years later maybe they have a piece of paper and maybe that impacts their job prospects.