[fishycrackers]

People are obsessed because you're trying to excuse the researchers behavior as ethical.

"Process" in this case is just another word for people because ultimately, the process being evaluated here is the human interaction with the malicious code being submitted.

Put another way, let's just take out the human reviewer, pretend the maintainers didn't exist. Does the patch get reviewed? No. Does the patch get merged into a stable branch? No. Does the patch get evaluated at all? No. The whole research paper breaks down and becomes worthless if you remove the human factor. The human reviewer is _necessary_ for this research, so this research should be deemed as having human participants.

[temp8964]

See my top comment. I didn't "try to excuse the researchers behavior as ethical".

[fishycrackers]

You did. You just won't accept it because you don't want to. Every time you try to draw the focus of the conversation to "it's a process study" you're trying to diminish the severity of what the researchers did here.

How was this study conducted? For every patch that the researchers sent, what process did it go through?

The answer is, it was reviewed and accepted by a human. That's it. Full stop. There's your human subject right there in the middle of your research work. It's not possible to conduct this research without that human subject interacting with your research materials. You do not get to discount that human participation because "Oh well we COULD replace them with an AI in the future". Well your study didn't, which means it needs to go through the human subjects review process.

When you claim that this study was about a process, you're literally taking the researchers side. That's what they've been insisting on as the reason why this study is ethical and they did not need to inform or obtain consent from the kernel development team. That's the excuse they used to get out of IRB's review process so they can be considered "not a human subjects research". That's the excuse they needed so they can proceed without having to get a signed consent form. They did all of this so they could conduct a penetration test without the organization they were attacking knowing about it.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend why or how the maintainers feel deceived here, or that their feelings are legitimate. If you did, you wouldn't keep banging on about "oh this is just a process study, the people don't matter, it's all isolated from humans". Funny enough, the people who DID interact with this research DID feel they mattered and DID feel deceived. The whole point of IRB was to prevent exactly this; researchers conducting unethical research which would only come to light after the study concluded and the injured parties complained (and deceit IS a form of harm). For research which is supposed to be isolated from humans and thus didn't see the need in obtaining a signed consent form, that's not really the outcome you expect to see if everything was on the up and up. Another form of harm from this study, the maintainers now have to go over everything they submitted again to ensure there's nothing else to be worried about. That's a lot of wasted man hours and definitely constitutes harm as well. All of University of Minnesota now has less access to the project after getting banned, even more collateral damage and harm caused to their own institution.

Let's be honest. If the researchers were able to sneak their code into a stable, or distribution version of the kernel, they'd be praising themselves to high heaven. Look at how significant our results were, we fucked up all of Linux! Only reason they didn't is because at least they can recognize that would be going a step too far. They're just looking for excuses to not get punished at this point. Same with the IRB. The IRB is now trying to wiggle out of the situation by insisting everything is ok. The IRB is also made up of professors who have a reputation to maintain! They know they let something through that should never have been approved in it's current form. Most human subject research NEVER get this kind of blowback and the fact that this one did means they screwed up and they know it.

No ethics review board considers a multi page, multi forum, lengthy discussion on the ethics of a study they approved as a good sign. Honestly, any study that gets this much attention would be considered a huge success in any other situation.

[ClumsyPilot]

"The answer is, it was reviewed and accepted by a human. That's it. Full stop. There's your human subject right there in the middle of your research work. "

Thats not the correct or relevant criteria. If you were correct, testing airport security and testing AntiMoney Laundering checks at a bank would amount to human experiments. In fact its hard to think of any study of the real world that would not become a "human experiment".

"When you claim that this study was about a process, you're literally taking the researchers side."

Thats some seriously screwed up logic right here.

"Weinstein was a Nazi and a serial killer, if you disagree with me you are taking his side"

[thu2111]

Um, academics aren't allowed to assemble bombs and then try and sneak them onto planes with the excuse that it's not a human trial. That'd be absurd.

It's easy to think of studies that don't involve humans so that statement is just wilful obfuscation. Physics, chemistry, heck lots of biology, and of course computer science are primarily made of studies on objects rather than people. Of those that are done on people they are almost always done on people who know they are the subject of an experiment. Very few studies are like this one.

[ClumsyPilot]

I am sorry, you arument is all over the place. What on earth are you arguing? That human trial does not excuse what would otherwise be a crime? That airport security is not tested with real bombs? That every study outside of natural sciences is a human expriment?

Studies of airport security are done all the time, thats how we know its terribly ineffective. The staff of the airport are not told about them, they are not human experiments.

The experiments on people have a spesific definition that goes beyond "a human is present"

[buffersandbeer]

Airport security staff consent to this type of testing at hiring time so testing can be random, and not just anyone can try to sneak a weapon through security to see if it's caught as "a test".

Perhaps a similar approach that allows randomness with some sort of agreement with the maintainers could have prevented this issue while preserving the integrity of the study.

[temp8964]

No. Study the process is not study the humans involved in the process. No matter how many words you put in there, A != B.

[liamwire]

Unfortunately “no” doesn’t constitute a rebuttal, and the responding commenter makes many valid points.

It is self-evident that this study tangibly involved people in the scope, those people did not provide consent prior, and now openly state their grievances. It is nothing short of arguing in bad faith to claim otherwise.

[ajnin]

Repeating the same thing over and over does not make it a fact.

Maybe the stated aim of the research was to study the process. But what they actually did was study how the people involved implemented it.

Being publicly manipulated into merging buggy patches, and wasting hours of people's time are two pretty obvious effects this study had that could cause some amount of distress and thus it cannot be dismissed as simply "studying the process".