[freshfunk]

Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself.

I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry.

It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is defined by laws. In the US, that citizenship can be given through birth.

Is that fair? Maybe not. But life's not fair. America has established a legal immigration system in order to (try to) make it fair. Simply ignoring that whole system and questioning the basic order of things seems like just an excuse to cut in line.

[wnight]

> if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry.

Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here."

We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land?

> It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world.

Not at all. The concept of doing whatever you want is firmly established in the real world. Your adoptive countrymen weren't welcomed here (or at least, not in much of 'here'). They came by force and trick, murdering and stealing.

At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.

[freshfunk]

> At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.

Did you RTA? The whole article was about how he lives in constant fear. OTOH, my parents were legal immigrants and have no guilt over the british colonists who took this land over from the native americans. Same goes for me.

You can stick your head in the sand but, at the end of the day, you still have to obey the laws of the country you're in. Even if you join a cult or live in the remote mountains of Montana, you're still bound by law. This is true for you and for people who come here illegally.

[wnight]

No, at least today's immigrant is living at peace with you - not killing you for your place in line, as our country's founders did for their place in line. I feel an honest refugee would be a better neighbor than someone who'd hold the lack of paperwork over someone's head.

You really don't have much to complain about.

As for law though, and obeying it, no. No, you don't have to obey the laws of the land you're in. In fact, there are times no good person would do so. It's just rules other people made up, not 'right'.

You're right I can't change the law but I can undermine it - make it easier to break and escape punishment for. Waste resources chasing ghosts instead of waging war and evicting the needy.