[sitkack]

The Lisp adage about '<something, something> 100 functions with 12 data types vs <something, something>' seems to relate treating the argument stack as the tuple so that you can have multiple functions that take the var-arg union of the shape of the stack. I don't think I am explaining it very well, but I think this is the gist of how one constructs algebras or monoids over the shape of the stack.

[kragen]

Perlis's epigram: "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures."

It's not strictly about Lisp; Perlis was fond of Lisp but his true love was APL. But you could use it to advocate JSON, bytestream shell pipelines, or even TCP/IP. Or a flat byte-addressable memory, I suppose, like Forth or amd64.

Are you thinking of something like the static typing system of Christopher Diggins's "Cat" language, or its children Kitten and Mlatu?

[sitkack]

Heh, the kragen[hashmap] comes through. Thanks for the quote.

While those are interesting, probably in the same way that Shen is interesting, I was thinking more along the lines that stack is an open ended product type (I made that up) and that operations on the stack are like a zipper, map, fold, product. That there is a projectional aspect to the stack, its expansion and contraction and shape over time.

The engines that do protein folding feel like they have similarities.

I still haven't grokked your whole description of your Lisp reader, I'll have to sleep on it. Is it related in structure to the METAII meta compiler or parser combinators?

[kragen]

That sounds like the insight cdiggins based Cat's type system on, but I'm not entirely sure in part because I don't really understand Cat's type system. As an example, though, for the code

    popop    = { pop pop}

Cat infers the parametrically polymorphic typing judgment

    popop    : ('t0 't1 't2 -> 't2) 

where 't2 is the type of the rest of the stack, I guess, and juxtaposition of types is a sort of product operation (noncommutative, but I think associative, and thus perhaps a monoid).

Not sure what you mean about "projectional" — do you mean that "pop" is a "projection" in the relational sense, in that it maps, for example, the stack 3 8 1 (with the top on the left) and the stack 7 8 1 to the same resulting stack state 8 1?

I don't know anything about protein folding.

> I still haven't grokked your whole description of your Lisp reader, I'll have to sleep on it. Is it related in structure to the METAII meta compiler or parser combinators?

Well, I didn't really write much of a description of the reader. It's a recursive-descent predictive parser, same as Probst's reader, and probably most Lisp readers. READ sets up the input pointers and calls (READ), which is ((READ)), which discriminates between lists and atoms (which are numbers) by looking for a "(". If it doesn't find one, it calls READ-NUM to read a number. But if it does, it calls READ-TAIL, which recursively reads the list contents (by calling (READ)) until it finds a ")", then returns back up, consing up the list as it goes. Probst's code works the same way, with the correspondences READ ↔ LISP-LOAD-FROM-STRING, (READ) ↔ LISP-READ-LISP, ((READ)) ↔ _LISP-READ-LISP, READ-NUM ↔ LISP-READ-TOKEN/-NUMBER/-SYMBOL, and READ-TAIL ↔ LISP-READ-LIST.

META II has the similarity that it generates recursive-descent parsers with predictive parsing, but the dissimilarity that it's a domain-specific language for writing parsers. Parser combinators are a technique for embedding any domain-specific parsing language in a general-purpose host language, regardless of what parsing algorithm is used, though Packrat may be the most common choice, and Packrat has certain similarities to recursive-descent parsing.

Is that helpful?

[DonHopkins]

You could follow Lisp's car/caar/caaar cdr/cddr/cdddr cdadar/cadadar/caaddaar naming conventions in Forth ("waiting for the other shoe to drop") or PostScript ("waiting for the other shoe to pop"):

Forth:

    : droop drop drop ;
    : drooop drop drop drop ;
    : droooop drop drop drop drop ;

PostScript:

    /poop { pop pop } def
    /pooop { pop pop pop } def
    /poooop { pop pop pop pop } def

[lebuffon]

This is interesting from the standpoint of the different mentality of Forth coders. If they really needed a fast removal of 4 stack items they would first code what you did.

Then after things were working they might replace droooop with something like this:

( Forth assembler psuedo-code follows)

     code droooop   sp 4 cells addi, next, endcode

One instruction to move the CPU stack pointer. Unthinkable to touch the stack pointer in most other environments but Toto we're not in Kansas. :)

*Next, is the traditional name of the "return to Forth function" in threaded Forth. A return instruction would be used in a native code Forth. Carnal knowledge of the internals is required and used by Forth coders.

[DonHopkins]

In a lot of FORTH implementations, constant numbers like 0, 1, -1 and others are hard coded, not just for speed but also for space: a call to a code word only takes one cell, instead of using two cells with a LIT [value].

Here's some Breshenham line code I first wrote in FORTH (Mitch Bradley's SunForth on a 68k Sun-2 with cg2 graphics board), then translated to 68k code (using the rpn FORTH assembler) -- the FORTH code is commented out before the corresponding assembly code:

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/forth/cg/line.f

The cg2 board wasn't directly memory mapped -- it had a really weird way of selecting and accessing one row and one column at a time, which was kinda convenient for drawing lines and curves, and ropping blocks around, but nowhere as convenient as direct memory mapped access would have been.

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/forth/cg/cg.f

I had to reverse engineer it from the map of the registers in this helpful include file:

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/forth/cg/cg2reg.h

    * To save on virtual address space, we don't map the plane or pixel mode
    * memory (first two megabytes).  However, when calling mmap the user has
    * to add 2M to the desired offset anyway (goofy, huh?).

[kragen]

If you were to implement such a PostScript-based programming language for a Racal PDP-11 clone (or an HP calculator, or a P-code machine), whether in NoCal or in SoCal, I think you'd have to call it FECAL.

If you really wanted to provide such a set of operators for, say, the top N stack items, you could give them systematic names with some distinctive scheme; limiting such stack operators to the top 3, for example, with no more than 2 extra results, you could provide the operators x→ (drop), x→x (nop), x→xx (bad Mexican beer), x→xxx (dupup), xy→ (2drop), xy→x (nip), xy→y (drop again, for consistency), xy→xx (nip dup), xy→xy (nop), xy→yx (exch†), xy→yy (drop dup), xy→xxx (nip dup dup), xy→xxy (dup again), xy→xyx (tuck), xy→xyy, xy→yxx, xy→yxy, xy→yyx, xy→yyy, xy→xxxx, xy→xxxy, xy→xxyx, xy→xxyy, xy→xyxx, xy→xyxy, xy→xyyx, xy→xyyy, xy→yxxx, xy→yxxy, xy→yxyx, xy→yxyy, xy→yyxx, xy→yyxy, xy→yyyx, xy→yyyy, xyz→, xyz→x, xyz→y, xyz→z, xyz→xx, xyz→xy (condescending answer on Stack Overflow), xyz→xz, xyz→yx, xyz→yy, xyz→yz, xyz→zx, xyz→zy, xyz→zz, xyz→xxx (programmers over 18 only), xyz→xxy (Klinefelter syndrome), xyz→xxz, xyz→xyx, xyz→xyy (Jacobs syndrome), xyz→xyz, xyz→xzx, xyz→xzy, xyz→xzz, xyz→yxx, xyz→yxy, xyz→yxz, xyz→yyx, xyz→yyy (bargaining, denial), xyz→yyz, xyz→yzx, xyz→yzy, xyz→yzz, xyz→zxx, xyz→zxy, xyz→zxz, xyz→zyx, xyz→zyy, xyz→zyz, xyz→zzx, xyz→zzy, xyz→zzz, xyz→xxxx, xyz→xxxy, xyz→xxxz, xyz→xxyx, xyz→xxyy, xyz→xxyz, xyz→xxzx, xyz→xxzy, xyz→xxzz, xyz→xyxx, xyz→xyxy, xyz→xyxz, xyz→xyyx, xyz→xyyy, xyz→xyyz, xyz→xyzx, xyz→xyzy, xyz→xyzz, xyz→xzxx, xyz→xzxy, xyz→xzxz, xyz→xzyx, xyz→xzyy, xyz→xzyz, xyz→xzzx, xyz→xzzy, xyz→xzzz, xyz→yxxx, xyz→yxxy, xyz→yxxz, xyz→yxyx, xyz→yxyy, xyz→yxyz, xyz→yxzx, xyz→yxzy, xyz→yxzz, xyz→yyxx, xyz→yyxy, xyz→yyxz, xyz→yyyx, xyz→yyyy, xyz→yyyz, xyz→yyzx, xyz→yyzy, xyz→yyzz, xyz→yzxx, xyz→yzxy, xyz→yzxz, xyz→yzyx, xyz→yzyy, xyz→yzyz, xyz→yzzx, xyz→yzzy, xyz→yzzz, xyz→zxxx, xyz→zxxy, xyz→zxxz, xyz→zxyx, xyz→zxyy, xyz→zxyz, xyz→zxzx, xyz→zxzy, xyz→zxzz, xyz→zyxx, xyz→zyxy, xyz→zyxz, xyz→zyyx, xyz→zyyy, xyz→zyyz, xyz→zyzx, xyz→zyzy, xyz→zyzz, xyz→zzxx, xyz→zzxy, xyz→zzxz, xyz→zzyx, xyz→zzyy, xyz→zzyz, xyz→zzzx, xyz→zzzy, xyz→zzzz (sleep 4), xyz→xxxxx, xyz→xxxxy, xyz→xxxxz, xyz→xxxyx, xyz→xxxyy, xyz→xxxyz, xyz→xxxzx, xyz→xxxzy, xyz→xxxzz, xyz→xxyxx, xyz→xxyxy, xyz→xxyxz, xyz→xxyyx, xyz→xxyyy, xyz→xxyyz, xyz→xxyzx, xyz→xxyzy, xyz→xxyzz, xyz→xxzxx, xyz→xxzxy, xyz→xxzxz, xyz→xxzyx, xyz→xxzyy, xyz→xxzyz, xyz→xxzzx, xyz→xxzzy, xyz→xxzzz, xyz→xyxxx, xyz→xyxxy, xyz→xyxxz, xyz→xyxyx, xyz→xyxyy, xyz→xyxyz, xyz→xyxzx, xyz→xyxzy, xyz→xyxzz, xyz→xyyxx, xyz→xyyxy, xyz→xyyxz, xyz→xyyyx, xyz→xyyyy, xyz→xyyyz, xyz→xyyzx, xyz→xyyzy, xyz→xyyzz, xyz→xyzxx, xyz→xyzxy, xyz→xyzxz, xyz→xyzyx, xyz→xyzyy, xyz→xyzyz, xyz→xyzzx, xyz→xyzzy (Nothing happens), xyz→xyzzz, xyz→xzxxx, xyz→xzxxy, xyz→xzxxz, xyz→xzxyx, xyz→xzxyy, xyz→xzxyz, xyz→xzxzx, xyz→xzxzy, xyz→xzxzz, xyz→xzyxx, xyz→xzyxy, xyz→xzyxz, xyz→xzyyx, xyz→xzyyy, xyz→xzyyz, xyz→xzyzx, xyz→xzyzy, xyz→xzyzz, xyz→xzzxx, xyz→xzzxy, xyz→xzzxz, xyz→xzzyx, xyz→xzzyy, xyz→xzzyz, xyz→xzzzx, xyz→xzzzy, xyz→xzzzz, xyz→yxxxx, xyz→yxxxy, xyz→yxxxz, xyz→yxxyx, xyz→yxxyy, xyz→yxxyz, xyz→yxxzx, xyz→yxxzy, xyz→yxxzz, xyz→yxyxx, xyz→yxyxy, xyz→yxyxz, xyz→yxyyx, xyz→yxyyy, xyz→yxyyz, xyz→yxyzx, xyz→yxyzy, xyz→yxyzz, xyz→yxzxx, xyz→yxzxy, xyz→yxzxz, xyz→yxzyx, xyz→yxzyy, xyz→yxzyz, xyz→yxzzx, xyz→yxzzy, xyz→yxzzz, xyz→yyxxx, xyz→yyxxy, xyz→yyxxz, xyz→yyxyx, xyz→yyxyy, xyz→yyxyz, xyz→yyxzx, xyz→yyxzy, xyz→yyxzz, xyz→yyyxx, xyz→yyyxy, xyz→yyyxz, xyz→yyyyx, xyz→yyyyy, xyz→yyyyz, xyz→yyyzx, xyz→yyyzy, xyz→yyyzz, xyz→yyzxx, xyz→yyzxy, xyz→yyzxz, xyz→yyzyx, xyz→yyzyy, xyz→yyzyz, xyz→yyzzx, xyz→yyzzy, xyz→yyzzz, xyz→yzxxx, xyz→yzxxy, xyz→yzxxz, xyz→yzxyx, xyz→yzxyy, xyz→yzxyz, xyz→yzxzx, xyz→yzxzy, xyz→yzxzz, xyz→yzyxx, xyz→yzyxy, xyz→yzyxz, xyz→yzyyx, xyz→yzyyy, xyz→yzyyz, xyz→yzyzx, xyz→yzyzy, xyz→yzyzz, xyz→yzzxx, xyz→yzzxy, xyz→yzzxz, xyz→yzzyx, xyz→yzzyy, xyz→yzzyz, xyz→yzzzx, xyz→yzzzy, xyz→yzzzz, xyz→zxxxx, xyz→zxxxy, xyz→zxxxz, xyz→zxxyx, xyz→zxxyy, xyz→zxxyz, xyz→zxxzx, xyz→zxxzy, xyz→zxxzz, xyz→zxyxx, xyz→zxyxy, xyz→zxyxz, xyz→zxyyx, xyz→zxyyy, xyz→zxyyz, xyz→zxyzx, xyz→zxyzy, xyz→zxyzz, xyz→zxzxx, xyz→zxzxy, xyz→zxzxz, xyz→zxzyx, xyz→zxzyy, xyz→zxzyz, xyz→zxzzx, xyz→zxzzy, xyz→zxzzz, xyz→zyxxx, xyz→zyxxy, xyz→zyxxz, xyz→zyxyx, xyz→zyxyy, xyz→zyxyz, xyz→zyxzx, xyz→zyxzy, xyz→zyxzz, xyz→zyyxx, xyz→zyyxy, xyz→zyyxz, xyz→zyyyx, xyz→zyyyy, xyz→zyyyz, xyz→zyyzx, xyz→zyyzy, xyz→zyyzz, xyz→zyzxx, xyz→zyzxy, xyz→zyzxz, xyz→zyzyx, xyz→zyzyy, xyz→zyzyz, xyz→zyzzx, xyz→zyzzy, xyz→zyzzz, xyz→zzxxx, xyz→zzxxy, xyz→zzxxz, xyz→zzxyx, xyz→zzxyy, xyz→zzxyz, xyz→zzxzx, xyz→zzxzy, xyz→zzxzz, xyz→zzyxx, xyz→zzyxy, xyz→zzyxz, xyz→zzyyx, xyz→zzyyy, xyz→zzyyz, xyz→zzyzx (Soda Springs), xyz→zzyzy, xyz→zzyzz, xyz→zzzxx, xyz→zzzxy, xyz→zzzxz, xyz→zzzyx, xyz→zzzyy, xyz→zzzyz, xyz→zzzzx, xyz→zzzzy, and xyz→zzzzz. You could certainly argue about the utility of many of these operators individually, not to say their mental risk as attractive nuisances, but their mnemonic value is indisputable.

______

† Where do you get an old PostScript printer? At an exch meet.

[DonHopkins]

I like to perform no-ops that keep the top of the stack fresh:

: NOP DUP SWAP DROP ;

Also:

Q: How many Northern Californians does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Hella!!!

Q: How many Southern Californians does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Totally!!!

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6492j904

http://people.duke.edu/~eec10/hellanorcal.pdf

Hella Nor Cal or Totally So Cal?: The Perceptual Dialectology of California

Mary Bucholtz, Nancy Bermudez, Victor Fung, Lisa Edwards and Rosalva Vargas. Journal of English Linguistics 2007; 35; 325. DOI: 10.1177/0075424207307780

>Abstract

>This study provides the first detailed account of perceptual dialectology within California (as well as one of the first accounts of perceptual dialectology within any single state). Quantitative analysis of a map-labeling task carried out in Southern California reveals that California’s most salient linguistic boundary is between the northern and southern regions of the state. Whereas studies of the perceptual dialectology of the United States as a whole have focused almost exclusively on regional dialect differences, respondents associated particular regions of California less with distinctive dialects than with differences in language (English versus Spanish), slang use, and social groups. The diverse socio linguistic situation of California is reflected in the emphasis both on highly salient social groups thought to be stereotypical of California by residents and nonresidents alike (e.g., surfers) and on groups that, though prominent in the cultural landscape of the state, remain largely unrecognized by outsiders (e.g., hicks).

Extra credit question:

Can you locate the isogloss designating the "101" / "The 101" line?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isogloss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIklKPzND20&ab_channel=Satur...

[sitkack]

xyz→yyz (Rush the stack)

[sitkack]

> Is that helpful?

Absolutely. It made my day. Thank you.

[tsegratis]

Very