[clusterfish]

That seems like splitting hairs for ideological gain.

You might as well describe freedom of movement as power to take someone else's job in another town, or freedom of speech as power to manipulate masses, or freedom to do an abortion as power over the unborn child. Which way the issues are framed says more about the author than the issue.

Software has leverage (one developer, many users at low marginal cost) built-in, but that doesn't make developing non-(A)GPL or even proprietory software a projection of developer's power. Lack of competition is what lets developer's exert power over users, and while copyleft licenses help with that, they're neither required nor sufficient to prevent abuse of power.

At the same time, copyleft doesn't come free (ha), as developers who need to earn a living will choose to work on problems where they can actually extract some profit to compensate for their effort. Not everyone is keen to work for free, or work as much / as hard for free as they would if they could make a living off it. So yes you might get free-er software, but less of it.

[moron4hire]

> That seems like splitting hairs for ideological gain.

Such is the way of the FSF.

[Seirdy]

Laws exist ideally to limit freedoms whose exercise comes with externalities that end up reducing the freedom for others. These range from freedoms to cause harm to others (steal, assault, enslave), to freedoms to sell food without disclosing ingredients, to freedoms to run a business without transparently reporting financial information. The idea of greater freedoms depending on lesser restrictions is not novel.

> Lack of competition is what lets developer's exert power over users, and while copyleft licenses help with that, they're neither required nor sufficient to prevent abuse of power.

Copyleft/FLOSS alone is a necessary but insufficient measure; I wrote about other measures in a blog post [0].

[0]: https://seirdy.one/2021/01/27/whatsapp-and-the-domestication...

TLDR: open platforms/standards-driven and implementation-neutral development, implementation diversity, and simplicity are also necessary. Once all that is accomplished, you have a platform that prevents abuse of power: anyone can use any implementation they want, and implementations are simple enough for community members to fork and maintain. All of this prevents vendors from exerting power over users.

> At the same time, copyleft doesn't come free (ha), as developers who need to earn a living will choose to work on problems where they can actually extract some profit to compensate for their effort. Not everyone is keen to work for free, or work as much / as hard for free as they would if they could make a living off it. So yes you might get free-er software, but less of it.

From the article I linked:

> The key to making money with FLOSS is to make software a commoditized complement of other, more profitable services. [1]

[1]: https://www.gwern.net/Complement

> Examples of such services include selling support, customization, consulting, training, managed hosting, hardware, and certifications. Plenty of companies use this approach instead of building proprietary software: Red Hat, Collabora, System76, Purism, Canonical, SUSE, Hashicorp, Databricks, and Gradle are some names that come to mind.

> Managed hosting isn't a basket worth all your eggs if giants like AWS can do the same at a lower price. Being the developer can give an edge in areas like customization, support, and training; it doesn't offer as obvious an advantage when it comes to hosting.

In other words, developers should be paid for service rather than copies of software. AGPL makes it hard to sell copies of software, but doesn't stop you from offering any number of services. This makes sense, since labor is a scarce resource while copies of software require artificially-imposed scarcity to directly bring revenue.

[clusterfish]

If developers only get paid for selling auxiliary services, no one actually gets paid to write and improve the software, only to sell services. That's a rotten incentive structure.

Most consumer software doesn't in fact need any auxiliary services. It just needs work put in to actually build it, and that work needs to be paid for.

Props to Red Hat for earning money from enterprise clients. That model only works if you have enterprise customers.

Props to System 76 for selling computers. That model only works if you're selling hardware.

My software doesn't need any services or hardware or other auxiliary bullshit, and I'm not going to invent the need for said bullshit just to satisfy some ideologues.

You're not entitled to tell me what kind of software to write or how to license it. Don't like it, write your own FLOSS version, and outcompete me. Don't want to, or can't sustain yourself that way? Then don't tell me that I should, or that I can. Words are cheap.

[tremon]

no one actually gets paid to write and improve the software, only to sell services. That's a rotten incentive structure.

That incentive structure is universal though. A builder also doesn't get paid directly to maintain his toolset, that cost is included in how he charges for his services. A hospital doesn't charge you for the laundry/cleaning services, it's included in their service bill. If a farmer's combine harvester breaks down, he can't just up the price of his wheat twenty-fold to pay for a new one.

There is a market for selling shrink-wrapped software, see e.g. Microsoft, Nintendo, Apple. Invariably these products are proprietary, because Free Software uses a different paradigm: under the free software/open source model, software is a tool, not a product.

[clusterfish]

> A builder also doesn't get paid directly to maintain his toolset, that cost is included in how he charges for his services

Of course. That's not a problem, because the toolset isn't the builder's product. Their customers don't care about the toolset, they actually want the service. Conversely, most consumer software users don't want or need your services, they just need the software.

Moreover, that toolset you mentioned belongs to that builder only. It's not a resource shared by all the builders in the world, unlike open source software.

It's not surprising that people pontificating about the morality of copyleft vs proprietary don't even seem to understand the basic economic effects of shared ownership like the tragedy of the commons.

[crazypython]

> freedom of movement as power to take someone else's job in another town

Freedom of movement is the power to exchange goods and services with anyone.

> freedom of speech as power to manipulate masses

Freedom of speech is only a freedom if it is accompanied by a potential hearer's freedom to block speech. Modern platforms do not let you choose what or who you want to hear. Freedom of speech without freedom to choose your censor is anarchy.

> Lack of competition is what lets developer's exert power over users, and while copyleft licenses help with that, they're neither required nor sufficient to prevent abuse of power.

You are ignoring the freedom to modify/fork, plus the requirement of free documentation.

[clusterfish]

Quite a quantum leap there from proprietary licenses to "modern platforms".

You're free not to use Facebook, Twitter, et al, you know. There are other, open, platforms. And other closed ones that are decent. Use any of them if you want more control over what you read.

Don't fucking shame people for earning money writing good software. Most of us aren't building evil monopolies.