[laurent92]

Old farts always assume what we ask for is illegitimate.

I remember a “HR Collective Negotiation” teacher in my masters (one of the top schools of France). He said “When you need to fire 193 people, don’t ask for 400 to come back to 200. Ask for 193 and negotiate until you get it.”

I’ve always applied this rule in my life. (Socially it doesn’t work at all, but I do it because I’d like to see a world that works on sincere values).

So I never demanded anything from my father up to the point I needed him. At 35 years old I told him modern women were unmanageable and my life was turning sour, and I needed help, I needed people to understand that men are being mistreated by the system, but I said it with ample documentation (you could watch the excellent movie The Red Pill, which depicts pretty much the complexity of our position), and that the only answer of society towards us is “Incel”. By the time I asked my father, I had already created some networks through politicians, but on the topic that interests me, all still had the same dismissive position, because promoting men doesn’t work politically. I’m saying that so you don’t say that I hadn’t walked my walk.

So apparently I’m able to make about 3 million dollars, between one startup which IPO’ed and my own company which has 6 employees. But I’m still not good enough for women, and worthy of being treated as the scum of the earth.

So I asked my father whether at least in my family, the upsides of men could be acknowledged, and if in addition to admiring my sister’s climb of Everest, we could acknowledge that we could give men the same kind of help for finding affection as we give women at work. I gave specific examples and came back on several angles. My father refused to respond to my demand, treating me as a spoilt brat every single time.

I do not see, when one has already contributed to society more than his father’s entire life of taxes (along with thousands of hours of volunteering, don’t assume I’m only talking in money, it’s just a symbolic result), what gives society the right to treat us as a tax slave and never give us love in return. I’ve always tried to be the kindest of all, but that’s also a receipe to be stepped upon, which seems to be an attitude that we think is totally ok for women.

There aren’t many ways besides violence to be heard by people who refuse to hear us. I’ve already tried words! And more importantly for me: I’ve already tried taking positive action.

Remains violence.

Just saying.

[tux3]

You're threatening violence. And what then. Do you intend to take love by force, Laurent92?

Blaming old farts. Well, I'm younger than you, but you still will not hear, from anyone, that what you're asking is far beyond "illegitimate", will you?

What is someone to do after hearing you?

[luckylion]

> what you're asking is far beyond "illegitimate"

Wanting to be acknowledged is illegitimate? Because that's really all I read from that. Being acknowledged not even for one's self, but at least for what one does or has done.

[nickflood]

The comment of laurent92 doesn't read as if he needs acknowledgement.

It reads like he thinks he's done enough "good" or has enough "accomplishments" in his head that he is definitely owed affection from women now, because clearly he's good enough as he is now. While also "refusing to budge" on the amount of what he's owed.

And I also read an anger at the inability to receive what he's owed, and some violence angle on top of that.

(Sorry, at this point this turned into a reply to Laurent92 themselves.)

That's not how it works, however, - you don't take what you're owed in a personal relationship (if you want it to be good and long lasting, anyway), and you don't treat the other person like they have to give you what you're owed. You're not against your partner.

However bad you think men have it today, women have it worse, and had for a long time. It's really only fair for the pendulum to swing another direction till everything settles in a good fair balance.

And that balance will look like people from different social groups working together, understanding each other, instead of taking what they're owed from each other.

What you need to do is look at your partner as you look at yourself because they are a person, too, not a device that gives you your reward.

[luckylion]

He mentions his father that praises his sister's climb of Mt. Everest (whether figuratively or not), but does not acknowledge his achievements, even when they far surpass his peers'. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

I totally agree with you that he's not owed anything from anyone, but I assume that we'd split about whether he owes anyone anything (e.g. taxes).

> However bad you think men have it today, women have it worse

In Saudi-Arabia? 100% agree. In France, Denmark, Germany or Sweden? No.

I think you're focusing far too much on the partner-angle. That's likely a part of it, but it sounds like an (especially painful) rejection in a long line of rejections.

I've witnessed that in multiple young men where they do achieve extraordinary things, but aren't part of the world elite in whatever they do, and they don't get the recognition they feel they deserve (usually rightfully so, imho). At the same time, a woman does something of much lesser difficulty and drowns in praise and opportunity (look up Aja Jaff for an example in Germany). Most of the men experiencing that get bitter and eventually become destructive.

It's easy to fix, but the whole "women have it worse, everywhere, always" shtick does get in the way. It doesn't hold up to reality either.