[lcall]

ps: re the above: I was told in comments about a simple college paper I had to write, that some statements like that were "weak" (from a good friend, and I think he helped my paper get a better grade when I made changes; but that was just a vanilla sort of undergrad class). But Benjamin Franklin said he intentionally avoided strong statements, even when he was sure he was right, to better continue conversation with good effect and with less acrimony (or said something like that, in his autobiography, avaible free online from gutenberg.org I think). And it really seems that he, with others, made a long-term helpful impact.

[yboris]

Note the different scenarios: an amicable conversation (a collaborative exploration of ideas) rather than a written academic piece where you need to make a claim (defend a thesis).

[lcall]

A good point. I was thinking both at different times; Mr. Franklin (IIRC--been a while) was referring to conversation among groups of friends.

[yboris]

Side-comment: I really hope more people become specific with their language. When you ask someone how long something took and they say "not too long" -- that's virtually no information. I try to be specific, like "about 6 hours" - since "long" is relative to a person's point of view (for some, 5 minutes is too long).

[lcall]

I have thought so too. Many times. Pls forgive or ignore my verbosity here, but I have been thinking about this.

I found that when I ask people to be specific, sometimes, they are noticeably distressed, or they don't want to talk more, as that is hard for them. I am starting (finally?) to learn that people are more different from each other than we realize. Like that internet meme about a dress where people clearly saw it in different colors from each other. Some just hate text UIs or a CLI, others couldn't be parted from them. Some are naturally good at music, or the arts, or balancing their finances, or being kind, or finding deals, building, putting others at ease, fixing broken things, or wearing matching clothes, or interior decorating, or some of us just have to work really hard to not be awkward in their company. And if I tell a color-blind person to just try harder, they might be hurt, and if someone in the room is unusually kind and wise, they might help me learn not to be a jerk. Like, I sometimes just don't care what color a chair is. But to some, it is actually distressing if it isn't right. Some even feel fear when seeing those who are different, because it is unfamiliar (edit: maybe they subconsciously don't know how to judge the safety of an unknown), etc.

We are all a work in progress in every area I guess, and we have to pick a limited few to get better at, at any given time; some things that come naturally to some people, others don't even know those things exist--it just doesn't hit the radar at all.

So... I am trying to learn to speak their other languages (didn't realize this in my youth), at least sometimes, though it is hard and tiring. And I hope they will be patient with me too.

(Maybe that is partly why God commands us to forgive others, in order to be forgiven. And surely we all need it.)

Edits: occasionally, if someone can't be specific or I can guess it is hard for them, I say like "Probably, it's more than 10 seconds [or 2 dollars, whatever fits], and less than 10 thousand [something very obviously excessive, but not too extreme.] I bet you can come closer than that." Then they actually make a guess that is as good as the situation will likely get, or it leads to more discussion.

It helps if I smile like to indicate that the wild guess is an obvious joke between us and that we are friends about it; then they are more willing to talk a little more and I might learn something.

[lcall]

pps: ok, I am into overkill now. But this makes me think of the language Esperanto. Learnable in 1/4 the time of Spanish which is among the easier languages for some. So internally consistent, rich, and seems to me the cheapest way for the world to be able to talk to each other. Not to replace native languages but as a universal 2nd, which some say makes the 3rd language easier than if it had been 2nd (less time overall).

(And many more things. which is why I have a web site because I can write and people don't have to hear it if they aren't interested.)

Edit: I have found that esperanto and spanish are both easier than Russian, and those are as far as I am going to try now for some time, I expect.