[momotomo]

Agreed. Attachment to not owning things is exactly the same issue as attachment to owning things. All you're doing is completing some actions to avoid a certain feeling or outcome.

I went through a phase where I just donated anything I thought was a distraction to charity, solved a lot in the short term, was insignificant in the long term. Addressing the fact I was bored with my career and hadn't had a break in years solved a lot more.

[latch]

I understand the spirit of what you are saying, I don't think I fully agree with it.

Beyond the self though, I think an attachment to not owning is more beneficial to humanity (I use the term broadly). Less consumption is simply more sustainable for our planet. That simple.

[momotomo]

I agree with you on this point. Apart from a handful of items I live fairly lightly anyhow, and less consumption is essential.

I'd just rather see it executed as a rational and dispassionate decision than something motivated by anxiety or internal / social pressure, in those scenarios I often don't feel people can sustain it / they won't substitute with something else.

[rimantas]

  > Less consumption is simply more sustainable for our planet.

The best take on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

What it does even mean, to be sustainable planet? To keep the status quo adapted for current human civilization and its perception of what's right?

[zoul]

Living sustainably simply means to live in a way that does not compromise the future generation’s chance to live.

[qF]

When thinking of a sustainable system I like the analogy made in Cradle To Cradle[1]: the cherry tree. A cherry tree produces food for animals and any blossoms and fruit that falls on the ground nourishes the soil. It produces more than it takes in, and nourishes it's environment.

When applying this to human civilization you can end up with sustainable factories for example [2].

[1] http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm

[2] http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mosa-worlds-first-cr...

[mapleoin]

What it does even mean, to be sustainable planet?

How about just keeping the wild polar bears alive?

[rimantas]

This answer is exactly the reason I asked what does it mean. Serious question: why keeping polar bear alive makes planet sustainable? Who kept dinosaurs alive? Or any other species which went extinct before we even were there? I think we vastly overestimate our influence on the earth (just compare total mass of humans to that of bacteria, not to mention plants) and our responsibility for it.

If human brings some alien seeds and the new plant starts to dominate the "locals" we see that human as criminal. Would winter or water do the same it's natural then. We are not the children of nature. We are the part of nature, and the small one. Sure, we have an ability to reflect on our actions and inflict disproportional changes to environment, but still.

Just for some context. Fukushima nuclear disaster: nobody killed, 39 injured. Japan earthquake and tsunami: more than 15 000 killed, more than 5000 injured, more than 7000 missing. The sentiment is still "get rid of nuclear, save the planet". Who is killing whom? Indian Ocean tsunami? Haiti earthquake?

George got it right: no matter what we do planet is here to stay, it is not going anywhere. We cannot in any way affect the sustainability of it. Only of our own lives.

[gnosis]

"no matter what we do planet is here to stay, it is not going anywhere. We cannot in any way affect the sustainability of it"

The earth is undergoing one of the largest mass extinctions in its entire history. And it's largely humans' fault.

The eath is undergoing massive climate change. And it's largely humans' fault.

Humans are polluting their environment on an unprecedented scale. We are causing enormous losses in biodiversity. And this does not even begin to address the devastation that a large-scale nuclear war would cause -- something that's still a very real possibility.

Sure, Earth's geology will survive, as its surface is like the rind on an apple and it doesn't matter much to the Earth's interior what happens on the surface.. and we can barely affect the geology of the surface.

But we can and certainly do affect life on Earth. Sure, humans might have a hard time killing off all life, but we're doing a pretty good job killing off a good fraction of it. And yes, humans are a part of nature, but a particularly destructive part.

[anamax]

> How about just keeping the wild polar bears alive?

What makes you think that they're not doing well?

Currently, some populations are increasing while others are decreasing - the overall trend is slightly up. The latter is a bit of a change - we've had times when the trend was down.

[Gotttzsche]

just bring them to antarctica maybe

[roel_v]

Why?

[pavpanchekha]

Why not?

(Let's not give flippant answers to flippant comments, that doesn't bode well for the rest of the conversation.)

[burgerbrain]

The answer to why not is because it requires the expenditure of effort. Without a reason to do anything in either direction, not doing something is the logically correct response.

[Evgeny]

Attachment to not owning things is exactly the same issue as attachment to owning things.

It sounds as if you don't think that it is possible to genuinely not need certain things.

If I don't own a TV and never even remember the fact that I don't have a TV, is that 'attachment'?

[momotomo]

No. You're talking about the neutral case. I own no specialist plumbing tools, but as I'm not a plumber, it doesn't bother me either way.

I'm talking about the two other cases - I must own X to be in state Y, or I must not have X to be in state Y.

People set themselves up all sorts of artificial success milestones with stuff like this that are just as ineffective on either end of the scale.

My own anecdote. I had a TV, I decided it was a distraction and owning it distressed me enough that I gave it away. I now own a TV again, it's dusty and gets used once a month. Nothing inherently different about the TV in this case, I just matured enough to be able to balance and manage my time better, so now there's no particular attachment (in the case of the TV) to having it there or not.

[Produce]

The real question is - would you have been able to detach from your television distraction if you didn't have that time away from it?

Personally, I find that going through periods of scarcity provides unique benefits because it proves, without a reasonable doubt, that it's possible to do so. Once the possibility has been witnessed, it is easier to say no even when the object is directly in front of you.

[sliverstorm]

I am currently trying to cut down my possessions (and sadly stressing a tad about it) so that they all fit reasonably in the back of my station wagon without overloading the suspension (I move once or twice a year). Would you consider that an artificial milestone?

[momotomo]

Artificial milestones to proceeding with a plan or taking an action, you're describing a literal milestone of fitting everything in your car due to a practical need.

I was down to the point of it all fitting in the boot of a sedan but had no rhyme or reason to it at all, I was just acting out against a bunch of other stuff because I figured once I was done, I'd be "ready"

_that_ is an artificial milestone.

[kmfrk]

> If I don't own a TV and never even remember the fact that I don't have a TV, is that 'attachment'?

If you are compelled to blog about it incessantly and preach it as religion, yes. Otherwise, not really. The blog post is aimed at a certain type of people and mentality that personally drives me up the walls. The "minimalism"/paperless craze is one of the biggest at the moment.

This is summarized in a great atheist joke:

"How do you know someone is an atheist?

They tell you."

[megablast]

Just like how not collecting stamps is as much of a hobby as collecting stamps? Ok, I am being silly, but not owning things is not the same as having an attachment to not owning things.

[alain94040]

If you keep feeling good because you don't own a stamp collection, if you keep reminding your friends how great it is not to own a stamp collection, then you are attached to stamp collections, just in a reverse way.