[EdwinLarkin]

I understand your viewpoint but you dont understand mine.And you probably never will.It's not your fault and I wont call you out on arrogance or ignorance or anything like that.It's impossible to re-live the experience.

You see I was born to an Eastern European country to a poor family.It was not anything like the US centric media portrays it to be.Definitely not africa or super exaggerated levels of poverty.

But we have not had the means to acquire wealth.My family did not have the opportunity to do so.My parents nor my grandparents or my grand-grand parents had that opportunity.

You on the other hand were born to a country with excess.Excess abundance of resources and wealth.

You have seen that excess yourself and it tainted you.It made you realize that you could live more sustainably.

You see I was born to such country were "sustainable" was the default mode of living.

You cant demand austerity from your experience of excess.

[ericmay]

I don't understand your argument. I grew up and realized the United States was doing something really dumb, but since I grew up in that environment I can't want things to be different?

You're having a strong reaction to this concept of sustainability. Austerity will come one way or another. Probably better to design and plan for it and build nice neighborhoods where you are not dependent on a large expense than not.

Anyway, what's so austere about walking to the grocery store nearby instead of driving a mile down the road? Why build so that you have to drive a car instead of making it optional?

Btw it would be awesome to buy you a beer if we ever met - nothing personal here. :)

[EdwinLarkin]

Nah you can want things to be different but the change can come at much higher cost than you can imagine.I am often thinking about this sustainable way of living and I always come to conclusion that we cant.

I am not sure how possible it is to retrofit adequate infrastructure into american cities but even then you will inevitably have to raise standards.Most people that want to stay in suburbs prefer it because of ... well a lot of reasons.

Apartment dwellers usually have an issue with noise coming from their neighbors and there does not seem to be a solution to this problem without raising costs astronomically.

I am not sure austerity will come...at least not for you ;-) in the US or other "resource rich" anglo countries.

>Anyway, what's so austere about walking to the grocery store nearby instead of driving a mile down the road? Why build so that you have to drive a car instead of making it optional?

I dont like to drive. I own a cheap car and use it to get from point A to point B in reasonable time.It gives me freedom no public transport can. I just dont trust the government to be there for me (it never was and I dont think it ever will be).

I'd rather support technical solution than ideological.

>Btw it would be awesome to buy you a beer if we ever met - nothing personal here. :)

I would gladly take it. I am a huge beer nerd.

[ericmay]

> I am often thinking about this sustainable way of living and I always come to conclusion that we can't.

Oh no doubt it's unlikely. Does that mean we should build suburbs instead of walkable neighborhoods? I'm not sure why it would.

> I am not sure how possible it is to retrofit adequate infrastructure into american cities

I'm not even arguing for that. I'm saying just stop building more suburbs. The cities will retrofit over time on their own as it starts to make economic sense.

> Most people that want to stay in suburbs prefer it because of ... well a lot of reasons.

I live in the suburbs. Most people have no choice in living in the suburbs or not. The suburbs are simply built, and then that's all the choice you have.

> Apartment dwellers usually have an issue with noise coming from their neighbors and there does not seem to be a solution to this problem without raising costs astronomically.

Yea... tell me about it as I have to close my windows because every day there is constant mowing, leaf blowing, and weed whacking and people driving loud cars and motorcycles. Oh and dogs barking. Though that's in the suburbs.

> It gives me freedom no public transport can

Why would you need public transportation to walk down the street? You'd just walk.

> I just dont trust the government to be there for me

Why would you then trust the government to build and maintain roads and highway infrastructure?

> I'd rather support technical solution than ideological.

I don't think technology can solve the problem. It's a public policy one. We need subtractive solutions, not additive ones, in my opinion.

[EdwinLarkin]

>Oh no doubt it's unlikely. Does that mean we should build suburbs instead of walkable neighborhoods? I'm not sure why it would.

I am not sure.Should we? I think living in the suburbs (and now I dont have a picture of american suburbs in mind) is something that a lot of people imagine as good life.Is it sustainable? Dont know. But is city life in mega cities sustainable? Also not.

>I'm not even arguing for that. I'm saying just stop building more suburbs. The cities will retrofit over time on their own as it starts to make economic sense.

Are cities better than suburbs? Asian megacities definitely are not solving the problem (although I am not arguing they should move to the suburbs :D).

>I live in the suburbs. Most people have no choice in living in the suburbs or not. The suburbs are simply built, and then that's all the choice you have.

I am not sure they are simply just built (maybe in the US?). Here in Europe suburbs are built because they provide better value for the price. Apts in cities are expensive and too small.

>Yea... tell me about it as I have to close my windows because every day there is constant mowing, leaf blowing, and weed whacking and people driving loud cars and motorcycles. Oh and dogs barking. Though that's in the suburbs.

Point taken. But you can definitely build a house / retrofit it that can mitigate the noise.That's much harder to do in a highrise building.

>Why would you need public transportation to walk down the street? You'd just walk.

I do that here in Europe.Cities are mostly walkable and yet most of the destinations that I want to go to are more reachable by car than by public transport.

>Why would you then trust the government to build and maintain roads and highway infrastructure?

Because they dont.They gain points by mismanaging public resources (building roads and highway infrastructure leading to nowhere (or very sparsely populated areas).

>I don't think technology can solve the problem. It's a public policy one. We need subtractive solutions, not additive ones, in my opinion.

You can live comfortably without being affected by these solutions.There's many more people that will having more tough because of that.