[AlexC04]

I don't mean to sound rude, but I feel like your response seriously lacks empathy.

I am a father to a 2 year old, I have a mortgage and an existing full time job.

The time investment required to go through a bunch of algorithms that are almost exclusively used in passing coding interviews does not offer the same ROI as, for example, streamlining a process that you are currently facing on a day to day basis.

On top of that, something that I've learned recently about myself is that I have a tremendous fear of failing coding interviews.

You see there is an emotional component to the effort you put in to doing one of those things. You go through the work to get accepted into the interview process then you find yourself face to face with "one shot" to impress.

Maybe they've even flown you out to their location so you can go through this whole experience on site. At that point the optimistic among us might start thinking about things like what our lives would look like if we worked at "technological mecca" doing really cool shit for silicon valley dollars.

So you start allowing yourself to think about watching the ocean on a sunny day eating avacado toast while you watch your now bleach blonde son playing in the surf. Your wife is happy too. You have this beautiful life that you're providing for those that you love.

(in your fantasies you don't worry about the cascadia fault-line, the dystopian nature of US healthcare, or the fact that california seems to catch fire for a month every year nowadays)

ANYWAYS, you go in, you give it your all. Maybe you think you nailed it, or maybe you can clearly come up with 20 better solutions in the 20 seconds after you leave. Maybe you studied 50 concepts intensely, but missed the one they picked to ask you about. You didn't get the questions in advance or anything.

It doesn't matter though, you missed a semicolon on the whiteboard and your code doesn't compile when they type it in.

You get a terse reply from your original recruiter "not a good fit at this time" ... there's no insight into what you did wrong or where you could get better. That opens the company up to legal liability. Anything more than "thanks" risks exposure.

So you're left with days and weeks of effort for nothing. On top of that you have a real long flight home where you get to grieve the loss of that beautiful life you imagined.

Do you work in a place where you can tell your colleagues at work that you were interviewing? If not, you can't even talk to the people in your life who are most likely to understand the pain you're going through.

So you get to suffer alone.

So. What does it say about someone?

Absolutely nothing.

[dmingod666]

I think couple things about interviews I've come to realise is this.

1. DO NOT get emotionally involved or excited about an opportunity till the time you see an offer letter - those reeeallly sweet people that are so happy and courteous and smiley will switch in an instant, snap! throw you out faster than a used disposable cup and will not so much as give you the courtesy of a reply. They don't give flying f about you no matter how many hours they themselves invested in the process. See for them, this is paid work to talk to you, so they don't give a shit they do it for 10 hours and still drop you without even sending you an email. You are working for free during the interview process and have much more at stake in this process than the person you are talking to. You feel you're having a genuine human interaction with them? no. You think it went well because objectively it went really well? Don't worry you'll get a 2 line generic rejection email.

2. DO NOT ever gauge your self worth as a developer to passing or failing an interview - you will destroy your own morale. Take hints and learn to be better, no doubt, but the decisions people make about you sometimes don't have anything to do with you specifically so don't take it to heart too much.

[cryptoboy2283]

The problem is if you don't get emotionally involved you'll definitely lose at least some level of emotional boost & interest. That also could be noticed & mentioned in one of the reviews.

There is no ultimate solution, it always depends on specific person you're talking to

[sanderjd]

For me the ROI was about 40 hours of studying for (estimating) about a million dollars delta over my next best job offer over the first five years. That week I spent studying is the most return I've ever achieved per hour. I don't love it and I deeply hated it at the time and still feel dirty to think about it, but from a financial ROI perspective it is unassailable. Honestly I think the opposite of your family-man argument is the case: I couldn't afford to allow my pride to keep me from doing that, for the sake of my family's finances. When I was young and unattached I could (and did) afford to be more idealistic about not doing that kind of gross thing, just for the financial reward.

[travisporter]

I think you should acknowledge that some people fail despite studying about 40 hours, and failing an interview takes a significant emotional toll that needs to be dealt with.

[sanderjd]

Good point, it is definitely not risk-free ROI at all, and the emotional toll can have outsized impacts. But I still think people with the skill set to succeed at other companies can learn enough in a relatively small period of time (I said 100 hours in a different comment to make the numbers round, maybe even double that is worthwhile) for it to be a worthwhile risk. I mean, the exact calculation depends on a bunch of details, like what the best alternative is in comparison. But I think for lots of people, it is worth the risk.

One thing I'd say is that essentially none of the people I know in other fields have a similar opportunity for a relatively small amount of dedicated study to pay off so well.

[AlexC04]

You're just so right! I'm expecting to take on a roughly 14 week study course to fit the work required into the time I have after I've put my son to bed and around my day job. Oh yeah ... and that podcast I started about professional development in software engineering.

(...and, and, and...)

But you're SO right.

I expect that publicly committing to internet-strangers that I'm working on the course, producing materials for them &, having a scheduled weekly discussion around the topics will help with both learning the content AND keeping us all motivated.

Your initial comment was one of the things that helped me come to those conclusions, so genuinely thank you, kind internet stranger for sharing your wisdom.

[AlexC04]

So it took a few days for what you said to sink in. And there were a few other information sources that combined together to bring me to the conclusion that you're right.

I've actually started writing a self-study course on passing the FAANG, as a trained educator with a bachelor of Education and five years experience as a high school teacher, I think I can make a fair shake at designing a series of free learning materials on the subject.

I started inviting people along and have built up a list of about 20 people who've at least SAID they'll stop by to my live streams (once a week) to discuss the problems of the week.

It's going to be a structured course https://github.com/AlexChesser/faangterview-preparation-cour... I'll be releasing under MIT.

I don't know that the switch would have flipped in my head about the ROI of the FAANG interview.

As I said, it took a couple days to actually sink it but you have completely changed my mind. I now completely agree with you that they are worth doing for a number of reasons, many of which aren't financial at all.

I see them as equivalent to the Bar exam for Lawyers now. Would you hire a lawyer who said "I don't believe in the bar?" (I think we've seen how that played out with the Kraken lawsuit!)

Would you go to a hospital that said "We don't believe that doctors need to have done the USMLE"?

In both cases hell no!

You're right. This is not arbitrary or cruel, it's just a professional qualification. Sure there's some luck involved, there's the chance of personality conflict. There's all sorts of potential downsides... but there's also the upside.

Being better at my craft overall is the ultimate reward. If I'm a better developer overall, the money will follow regardless of whether I get in to a FAANG

[croutonwagon]

I have always felt the desire to work at FAANG was diametrically opposed to having a family life.

Its seems to be an extremely competitive, eat or die type lifestyle that would require many more hours than a normal job. In essence its its own marriage of sorts, or at least in competition for non-work relationships/marriages.

And there's nothing wrong with the people that choose to do that. But it seems obvious even in the success stories.

I'm extremely competitive, however I also value family over all else. I would much rather spends dinners with my kids, and weekends with my family enjoying the fruits of my labor over having a line on my resume. I know that if i ever went that route, it would absolutely come at a cost, most likely my marriage at least, and probably some level of relationship with my children. Its frankly not worth it for me.

[UK-Al05]

I feel like FAANG jobs are the most conducive to family life compared to small companies or startups.

They have maternity leave, and they have resources so you don't have to be on call constantly as it is with smaller companies.

[croutonwagon]

Generally, amongst my peers over time I’ve found that to not be as true. Though of course it depends on a number of factors, including leadership and company culture.

I could easily take some time if needed. My senior admin is taking a month of paternity here in a few weeks, as he did with his first. I have a first line guy that has been in and out for months for various reasons. It is a strain on others in small places but like any place if you document and cross train a bit it’s not terrible.frankly it’s a stated goal for my teams and something I have implemented across several roles and sectors in my career (even if I didn’t get to reap the benefits)

Colleagues of mine that went FAANG stated similar. Amazon notoriously has an unlimited time off policy. That buddy hasn’t made the family vacation tradition since he started. The first year he tried it he basically worked in the condo.

So from what I’ve seen, at least with Amazon, it’s de facto cutthroat and not so much a benefit.

Though I understand I’m possibly attributing that same experience, which may even be localized to his team, to a much broader set, based on the similarities of their culture/workplace.

Many of these places have showers and lounges and free food etc. and frankly I don’t want to work at a place that there’s a culture that encourages eating and sleeping there. Again I prefer to do those things at home or break from work during breaks.

[aeoleonn]

By the same token, I think your post lacks empathy for OP.

OP perhaps doesn't have the constraints you have.

As an aside--

Do you really expect A. someone who has never met you and who has B. written a comment online before you arrived to reply... to know your life conditions or to tailor it to every possible human life outcome?

That is, because you've had children, does every comment online now need to ensure its content is in alignment with your perspective? That sounds like a failure to empathize, on your part.

For example, if I write something... do I need to make sure it's prepared in a way that 100% of people can relate to it, throughout time & space? Such as fathers of children, amputees, astronauts, etc?

[AlexC04]

I don't know that you and I should get into a discussion here.

It sounds like we're so diametrically opposed that it could get pretty heated. At least from my end. You do have a right to your opinion, but I don't want to play in the space where I could get emotionally dysregulated by some dude on the internet.

I'd rather not bring a flame war to the HN community.

I'm also not entirely sure that your argument is in good faith and i'm really not in the sort of place where I want to tease out the things you say which are hyperbole versus the things you really believe.

Do you really think that I said all interviews should be tailored to all people throughout all time and space? I can't believe that you really think that, so you can't be arguing in good faith.

Are you really saying that you think it is unreasonable that we expect accommodations be made "for amputees"? Like their role or position in society is somehow a burden on you, or god forbid employers?

Honestly, maybe you do. Maybe you're super into eugenics. I don't want to find out really. It is best that we go our separate ways.

I hope you have a very peaceful day.

[aeoleonn]

Ok, before you read this, I need you to sit down and take some deep breaths. If nothing else, just remember:

1. It's going to be okay.

2. One day, you will recover from this comment and move on with your life. It will take time, but just take it day by day for now. Every day you're able to regulate your emotions after this comment is an achievement.

___________ Now for the comment:

0. Intro

Thanks amigo. I think you've taken it in the wrong direction, intentionally. (Given the current politics of hyperbolic outrage bait, I typically assume overly sensitive people prefer to [i.e. at least pretend to be] outraged over strawmen, because that's the current trend I see in western society.)

________________

1. The strawman

Your strawman implication: "You don't think accomodations should be made for amputees?!?!"

My actual quote: "For example, if I write something... do I need to make sure it's prepared for" ... <examples of various potential peoples' widely divergent qualities>

Good lord. Way to take things out of context, and then get outraged over your own strawman.

Look... I literally said "if I write something".

and you literally implied "you think it is unreasonable that we expect accommodations be made"

Where did I say anything about "accomodations"... my comment is essentially that you fail to see that no one can predict what stranger (and the qualities of their life) could possibly happen upon their comment.

Our interaction went something like this:

A. Random father arrives to see a comment wasn't tailored to his needs and claims the comment doesnt empathize with him

B. I tell the father that it is he who lacks empathy for expecting internet strangers who arrived in a discussion before he did, to somehow prospectively predict his life qualities/needs for empathy as a father, and tailor their comment specifically for him.

C. The father doesn't appreciate the exposure of his hypocrisy. Decides to paint a strawman involving employer accomodations for amputees, eugenics, and emotional dysregulation due to online commentary (while also assuming my gender, for bonus points of course)

________________

2. The strange & unrealistic

... Also, regarding: "the space where I could get emotionally dysregulated by some dude on the internet."

Uhh... yeah, First of all, you just assumed my gender... something tells me you're not very consistent in your political pretense.

That said-- welcome to Earth. It could get a little rough for ya... <sarcasm> Maybe you should avoid everything that could possible evoke stress, rather than adapting to inevitable stress</sarcasm>

___________________

3. Left field

Am I into eugenics? (Firstly... What part of left field did that come from?) We all are, whether we like it or not. Are you attracted to attractive people? Guess what-- you're a eugenicist.

All organisms are designed by evolution to seek the best quality genetics for their offspring, so again, welcome to Earth.

"Just like adults, newborn babies prefer to look at an attractive face, according to new research carried out at the University of Exeter."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/news_features/2004/baby_faces.sht...

Babies are eugenicists! The horror!!