[Miraste]

Since everyone and their mother got access to it, the internet needs censorship to function. Imagine HN, the App Store, any Discord server or subreddit, or any forum ever with no moderation. They'd be dysfunctional to the point of being unusable (and often are, it's not like examples are lacking). If you agree with any of that, this is not an absolutist debate but a question of degree and picking a spot on the slope that isn't too slippery.

[skynet-9000]

> Imagine [a list of things that did not include the Internet itself] with no moderation.

Dysfunctional to the point of being unusable indeed.

[Miraste]

I'm not sure what your point is here. If everything notable on the internet is moderated, it's functionally equivalent. I don't support what Apple is doing or the increased heavy-handedness of recent years, but advocating no censorship of anything is a fantasy and a cop-out.

[jerf]

I didn't advocate for 'no censorship'. Censorship is a continuum. It is more-or-less a fact that zeal for censorship has gone up in the HN gestalt, and I assert the HN gestalt is making the mistake of thinking they or people friendly to their views will be the ones deciding what gets censored.

Increasing comfort with censorship of a larger range of views will also translate into increasing comfort with stronger measures taken, because of course if you are running around saying censorable things you should get higher interest rates or it should show up on your credit report. But... are you sure you're going to be the ones in charge of what gets censored? Because you aren't.

Advocating for less censorship and less consequences for censorship, not no censorship, is a sensible Nash equilibrium to pursue for everyone. Advocating for more censorship and more comfort with censorship will empower people who will eventually censor you. Those who are using the gestalt's comfort with censorship (and equivalent comfort with censorship elsewhere) are only using the censoring of things you agree with today as a cover for the acquisition of power. Once they have it, what you want it for will not be something they're too worried about. They're going to use it for themselves. It is wiser not to give that power up just because they're promising to use it for things you like today.

(Among the ways in which censorship is a continuum are the size of the community in which it is taking place (HN is fairly small), and the nature of what is being censored (most of what gets nuked from HN is for tone or outright trolling, though I do not assert all). It isn't even remotely hypocritical to be comfortable with that, which is rather minimal and functional, while being uncomfortable with the increasingly political nature of censorship being advocated for in the largest forums. I'm also on record as being skeptical as to whether something the size of "Facebook" can ever be "a community": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20146868 )

[Miraste]

Reasonable and well-put. I think we agree except in semantics--I see being for traditional forum-type policing as still pro-censorship on some level, and the debate as on finding what level is acceptable (e.g. more nuanced than "less").

I like your point about Facebook's size. They've been unable to define global rules in part because large segments of their user base hold directly opposite values to the point that stating their beliefs, genuinely held and of majority opinion in their communities, would be deleted under common sense trolling rules in other parts of that user base. Facebook has three options: leave everything controversial up, delete all of it, or take a side. They've done all three of these at various points and they've all been disastrous.

[g_p]

I think the other key issue around scale is that at FB scale, you simply can't realistically get consistency of moderation - or even a person reading each post.

At FB scale their moderation started with "you can hide it if it annoys you" (aka not bothering) - the easiest technical solution. Doesn't actual address the problematic content, but perhaps doesn't feed the trolls.

Going beyond that to any kind of action requires determining whether something breaks any rules, and also faces the issue that reporting is used as a weapon, so simply deleting everything (mass) reported doesn't work either... And figuring out if it breaks rules just falls back onto rules which are imperfect.

As you sum up well, they're at such a scale that they have complete polar opposites on the platform. And in a sense, perhaps what we need are more subdivisions, not fewer - maybe what we are seeing here is the symptom of existing tensions, albeit exacerbated through being able to reach an audience that disagrees in real-time.

[jhclouse]

It’s not a fantasy at all. Just an ex post facto rationalization that those with authoritarian personalities tend to come up with.

[Miraste]

Okay, what are some examples of functioning sites or services that work with no moderation?

[skynet-9000]

> fantasy and a cop-out

And yet somehow you found this site, where you claimed the uncensored internet was a fantasy.

[Miraste]

?

HN is heavily moderated. Try turning on showdead in your profile and reading the trash that dang and co. delete from here. I doubt you'll come away with the conclusion that it should all be left up.

This includes things like removing duplicate links and changing upvoted stories from tertiary sources to primary ones. Is it "censorship?" Yes. Does it make the site better? Yes.