[benihana]

With the hyper-AJAXed world, client-side innovation becomes impossible.

Are you serious? Have you heard of the canvas element? It allows modern browsers to do things that were only possible 2 years ago in Flash. Have you noticed how there are actual web applications, not just a collection of linked pages these days? Have you noticed how with ubiquitous JavaScript, the usability and ease of websites has improved greatly?

[cypherpunks]

No. I haven't. I've noticed maybe 1 or 2 web apps I want to use (Google Docs and Google Maps). Beyond that, I don't see anything that couldn't be delivered more effectively without JavaScript that I want or need.

Usability is not up. Each web site has its own, custom, non-standard user interface. I could teach my mom to use the web circa '96. I cannot teach her to use it today. It's too damn complex.

Usability would be up if the browser knew more about what to expect. You can look at things like Readability. The browser ought to know more about the content, and be able to present it in a coherent, usable way. The server-side shouldn't dictate presentation.

[pak]

A big part of usability is not sitting around waiting for entire pages to reload every time you interact with them. AJAX has done great things for users by minimizing this delay. You wouldn't like Google Maps as much if you had to click an arrow and wait for a page refresh for the map to move, like MapQuest circa 2003.

Yes, the proliferation of web apps has created a diversity of user interface paradigms. Some would say this is a good thing, however, since the web has spurred all kinds of new UI philosophies, and the fact that JavaScript and HTML isn't compiled allows people to examine and re-work others' code, so good ideas spread very quickly. I for one don't intend on waiting for the HTML5 group to invent every new <input type=""> that I could conceivably need, and then wait some more for browser vendors to implement them all consistently. With JavaScript, you can currently build and deploy just about any kind of 2D client-side interaction imaginable.

In short, the vast majority of users on the internet probably have a different idea of usability than yours, and the numbers tell the rest of that story. You only need to look at the gross casserole of UI paradigms within the applications installed on your mom's PC to see how much users really care about UI standardization.

[codehalo]

Thank you.

[cypherpunks]

Did you read what I wrote? I mentioned Google Maps as one of the two places I found AJAX useful.

The applications on my mom's PC do have much better UI standardization than the web does. Microsoft releases UI guidelines. alt-f4 does the same thing in every application I've used, and the menu structure is roughly the same too. Apple is even better.

[pak]

> Did you read what I wrote? I mentioned Google Maps as one of the two places I found AJAX useful.

Yes, and I was dissecting why you may have found it useful, because the same principle applies to hundreds of other situations that you may not have recognized.

> The applications on my mom's PC do have much better UI standardization than the web does. Microsoft releases UI guidelines. alt-f4 does the same thing in every application I've used

Questionable. About the only key shortcuts you can rely on are the ones that will work in your browser too. Alt-F4 will close your browser--that's what you wanted, right? Cut/copy/paste, print, etc. all work there as well...

> the menu structure is roughly the same too

Ha, you mean the invisible menus on Explorer and IE>8, the mega "office button" menu in Office 2007, the delightfully inconsistent menu bars in WMP>9...

[bad_user]

     Microsoft releases UI guidelines

Microsoft and UI guidelines in the same sentence, something doesn't compile - I would be happy if they used their own guidelines though.

     the menu structure is roughly the same too

Too bad it is getting reinvented; it happened in Office 2010 and it will happen again as people are getting tired of File -> Save; and yet again when touch screens on laptops will become the norm.

So I'm sorry for your mom, but unless she never upgrades, then she's going to have to learn new things.

[KeyBoardG]

I do see a side of what you're saying. In those older days the web was a much simpler platform so figuring out what to do and what to click was easy. This was true in Windows too as MFC was the library of choice for UI meaning a lot of the software was easy to figure out also.

Today a lot more software and websites have broken the mold and come up with some really different(not siding better or worse because both exist out there) UX patterns. There aren't standards for web UI anymore that are practiced across the board.

I do disagree with your statement that the client should dictate how a site is presented, not the server. The browser should display the content in a standards compliant way. The days of buttons looking like windows buttons in IE and Mac buttons in Safari should be a thing of the past never to return.