[patrec]

You clearly have the upsell part, but where is the "and win over the enthusiast crowd by making it possible to host your own alternatives to those services with a little technical know-how." part?

I and probably many others would be OK with paying for the upsell part, if it's an optional convenience, but nothing I saw on your site indicates it is, or that "own your data" is in any meaningful way true. How do I own my data if any use of it requires me running stuff on your proprietary box, subscribing to your proprietary service?

[gsreenivas]

If you store data on a hard drive you purchased from Best Buy, do you own that data? It's a proprietary box also...

Data from Helm is accessible using IMAP, SMTP, CardDAV, CalDAV, WebDAV on the local network (without requiring our service). You own the device, you own the data. There is a standards-based way of accessing that data just as there is with the hard drive from Best Buy.

[patrec]

> If you store data on a hard drive you purchased from Best Buy, do you own that data?

I can plug the Best Buy harddrive into almost any computer/SAN I want to and utilize for the purpose I bought for without any lock in. Using the hard drive for my data requires very little trust in Best Buy's good intentions at the time of purchase and zero trust in the continued existence, technical competence or good intentions beyond that -- it is very unlikely that best buy will find a way to snoop on my data even if they wanted to. Everything will continue to work fully as intended until mechanical failure sets in. Feels like ownership to me.

In your case I rent some box from you which will lose almost all its intended function the moment your company goes bust or I stop paying you an annual fee. Furthermore it seems I am completely at the mercy of your original and continued good intentions as in addition to using your lock-in for a big price hike later you presumably can also snoop on my data. As far as I can tell there is no really substantial trust differentiator to protonmail. I have to trust them when they claim they won't read my email and are competent enough to keep things secure and I have to trust you (and continue to trust you as long as I want to use the device) that you will encrypt my data and not exfiltrate any of it (or the private key), and furthermore that you run your servers securely enough that no third party will. But what is to stop it? The box is running closed source software that you can remotely update anytime you feel like it, right? I have physical access, but since I don't control the software, what use is that?

Maybe I didn't understand something right, but so far this does not feel like ownership to me.

It sounds more like the worst of all worlds: the lock-in and lack of ownership of a proprietary cloud-based subscription service with the added hassle, inconvenience, downtime and costs of babysitting (and supplying electricity to) a cloud server for you, the provider.

> Data from Helm is accessible using IMAP, SMTP, CardDAV, CalDAV, WebDAV on the local network (without requiring our service).

In what ways is that better than running an IMAP client on my laptop and using it to send data via protonmail, using my own domain, and keeping offline copies of everything (with a periodic upload to backblaze or some other e2e encrypted backup solution)? That seems to offer about the same control over my data, but is cheaper, easier, more convenient, has higher redundancy/uptime and if anything less lock-in. It also doesn't require an additional device that has no use beyond adding an additional failure point and cost center that's my responsibility.

> There is a standards-based way of accessing that data just as there is with the hard drive from Best Buy.

Accessing the data is not enough because what you are selling me is not an overpriced and unergonomic hard drive. You are selling me the ability to send, receive and store email (and likely more).

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the idea of buying a physical box and a subscription service to self host stuff in a way that gives me better control over my data for an acceptable amount of hassle. But that really requires some amount of openness/auditability and interoperability that currently appears to be absent.

[gsreenivas]

> In your case I rent some box from you which will lose almost all its intended function the moment your company goes bust or I stop paying you an annual fee.

No - we do not rent hardware. When people buy the server from us, they own it. Full stop. There are ongoing costs to make email at home work: a static IP address with good reputation, a security gateway, traffic, etc. If people don't want to pay us for those costs, they will pay them to an ISP and/or an infrastructure provider like AWS. The ease of setup and management comes from the integration of hardware, software and service.

> I am completely at the mercy of your original and continued good intentions as in addition to using your lock-in for a big price hike later you presumably can also snoop on my data.

This is true of any paid service you use right? They can increase your costs at any time. I'm not sure why you think there's something uniquely bad about us for this reason. We have pretty clear values around wanting to know as little about our customers as possible and designing our products end to end around that. We have worked pretty hard at reducing costs, bringing the server price down 60% while doubling its specifications. Our goal is to make this as cost effective and accessible as possible for everyone. We are not interested in locking in customers - it's easy for anyone to take their data off Helm and go to a server of their own making or another service of their choosing. That's not hypothetical - like any company, we have churned customers and supported them in their migration off our product. It's easy to sling these hypotheticals you are concocting but they are not borne out of any reality.

> As far as I can tell there is no really substantial trust differentiator to protonmail.

There is actually a substantial difference. Protonmail holds your data on their servers and therefore can turn it over without a warrant. Well it's encrypted, right? So what could any entity do with that data? Well, Protonmail may be compelled to modify their service to intercept the password on login to decrypt your inbox and turn it over to a government authority (if you don't think that can happen, see what the German government did to Tutanota).

We aren't in a position to do that. Even if the US government came with a court order for your encrypted backups from us, we don't have access to the keys to decrypt them. If we were asked to make firmware changes, we would be retracing the steps of the FBI/Apple San Bernardino case and would enlist the help of the EFF, ACLU and others to fight. I personally believe the case law is pretty clear that they wouldn't win, which is partly why the FBI relented earlier.

> that you can remotely update anytime you feel like it

You make this sound like a terrible thing but really it's not. It allows us to keep our products patched and secured over time.

> In what ways is that better than running an IMAP client on my laptop and using it to send data via protonmail, using my own domain, and keeping offline copies of everything (with a periodic upload to backblaze or some other e2e encrypted backup solution)?

I didn't say people couldn't roll their own solutions. Sure they can - it's just more work, hassle and fragile. And I already covered the tradeoffs of keeping that data in the cloud. Protonmail has access to all your email in the clear (inbound and outbound). We do not and anyone running a server at home would have similar privacy. That's a clear difference.

> Accessing the data is not enough because what you are selling me is not an overpriced and unergonomic hard drive. You are selling me the ability to send, receive and store email (and likely more).

Actually it is because we were talking about data ownership. Your specific dig was about how "own your data" was in any way true ("or that "own your data" is in any meaningful way true" in your parent post).