[demonshreder]

I have been using Clojure as a solo developer for about two years now, there is definitely a productivity increase. It always feels like the amount of time required to do the next thing is incrementally decreasing (like Ologn?)

While all that is fun, Clojure is still a very enterprise ecosystem, where participants don't share as much elementary code as in Python ecosystem. Participants are also quite experienced, thus I have to sit, read through and make architectural decisions for the entirety of the project. When we add this thinking time into the measurement, the time taken for a Clojure 'project' (not a piece of code) is definitely more than Python or Java (IMO).

[kleiba]

I have no hands-on experience with Clojure but it always appears to me that the language manages to get even complex computations done in relatively little code. This is because Clojure offers powerful abstractions, and this contributes to getting things done rather quickly once you've found the right way of representing data.

However, it also makes me wonder if this advantage for writing code might later on turn into a shortcoming for reading, i.e., understanding code - either someone else's or your own code six months later.

Complex computations that are highly compressed through the use of powerful abstractions seem to lean towards puzzle solving when you're trying to understand code that you're not already familiar with. Am I wrong?

You mention Python and Java at the end of your post, and I think Python at least definitely has a mindset where readability is valued as a means for greater accessibility / maintainability.

[simongray]

> However, it also makes me wonder if this advantage for writing code might later on turn into a shortcoming for reading, i.e., understanding code - either someone else's or your own code six months later.

Well, you're always at the mercy of whoever wrote the code, but I will just say that in my experience (as an intermediate Clojure developer, I learned it in 2018 and have been doing it professionally ever since) reading other people's Clojure code is quite easy, since basically every line of code builds on the same core abstractions (mainly the seq abstraction) and uses the same handful of functions from Clojure core (the standard library). And obviously it's mostly pure functions and immutable data, so you get the benefit of being able to isolate the code and test it out in the REPL.

The main advantage of Clojure's particular data-oriented style is that there are no classes and associated methods to learn. Clojure basically defaults to using data literals for pretty much everything and the same custom is respected by most of the popular libraries (even many of the Java and JS wrappers). That's also part of why the code is pretty simple to read and why you tend to use the same few functions and macros for absolutely everything you do: you're literally just manipulating the same few kinds of data structures all the time.

[mumblemumble]

For my part, I am rather disillusioned with data-oriented programming. I admit I haven't spent a lot of time using Clojure professionally, but, in a recent experience of having to learn a large pre-existing codebase, I found that the difference between, "everything is a map," and, "the application's entire data model is a big indistinguishable ball of mud," seems to be commenting discipline. And commenting discipline is always terrible.

Officially, by the book, you're supposed to use data access functions to give everything distinguishable names and keep it clean. What I ran into is that some nice language features for writing code quickly and tersely, such as map destructuring, actively discourage you from doing that. And without that, the difference between a map full of data and a class is that a class has a single file you can read to find out what's in it, while a map may have been built up in a completely ad-hoc manner.

I think the code maintenance story may have actually been a little bit better back when I was using lisp, because lists. It's actively painful to use raw functions like cdadr to unpack your data structures. Whereas assoc-in is a fun toy and encapsulating it so you don't get to use it as much would be a bummer.

[Scarbutt]

"the application's entire data model is a big indistinguishable ball of mud," seems to be commenting discipline. And commenting discipline is always terrible.

From Rich Hickey's "History of Clojure"[1]:

Not all is rosy. Users perennially report dissatisfaction with the error reporting from the compiler and various macros. They are confused by Java’s stack traces. They face challenges maintaining and understanding, e.g., the data requirements of a codebase when a discipline around documentation has not been maintained.

Hickey is signaling here that "commenting discipline" is a must for working with Clojure.

[1] https://download.clojure.org/papers/clojure-hopl-iv-final.pd...

[ithrow]

It's like difference between having to use something like mongodb vs postgres, in mongodb you have great flexibility but must have very high commenting discipline, in postgres, less so.

[tragomaskhalos]

When doing Python I find myself using namedtuple all over the place - I neither want nor need the ceremony of a class, don't like the laxity of a map, and want to be able to see what the fields are at a glance.

[roenxi]

Not really. Having more powerful ways to express yourself doesn't make it harder to read code. There isn't some cosmic "power corrupts" system of karma at work. Power just makes the code more powerful.

The issues I've had with Clojure are the small community leading to questionable documentation and supporting libraries just feel a little underdone once off the beaten track. There is also the radically different style of programming (which is also the biggest plus). But the power of the abstractions isn't a problem, it just means there is less to read. If anything, reading the source code of libraries becomes more feasible because often libraries are about instantiating an idea than writing lots of code.

[kaba0]

> Having more powerful ways to express yourself doesn't make it harder to read code

Well, depends. For example, reading my older Haskell code is definitely harder than my Java code. Also, only a handful of teams is lucky enough to have only good programmers. There is always someone who sees some great advanced concept and applies it without the necessary know-how on the dangers/context of that feature. I think Haskell, Clojure and Scala as well are somewhat prone to this.

[Viliam1234]

Given the choice between undocumented Java code and undocumented Clojure code... I'd rather take my chances with Java.

[tombert]

I've had similar issues with immature libraries, to a point where nowadays I will usually end up using the Java libraries and write my own wrapper around it if it's not Clojurey enough for my liking. Much as I dislike Java as a language, I don't think anyone would dispute that it has pretty excellent library support, so I figure that there's no reason I shouln't exploit that fact in Clojure.

[dkarl]

I think this is a danger with any powerful language. In order to aid readability, abstractions need to be chosen, or designed, to be intuitive to readers and to align with their understanding of the domain. Sometimes people can be overly determined to decrease the verbosity of their code, and after spending enough time immersed in it, almost any detectable pattern can start to feel "intuitive." Using these patterns to compress the code can feel like a process of discovery and innovation to the person doing the writing, but if the abstractions are not intuitive for readers, it has the same effect on readability as gzipping a text file. Patterns are found, verbosity is decreased, but readers are not aided by the abstractions and must mentally decompress the code in order to understand it.

In my own day-to-day work, I see this issue with Scala programmers (myself included) who suffer from a tendency to see any kind of struggle with code as a valuable learning process. All of us got to where we are, slinging around monads in a "hard" language, because we have an appetite to expand our mental repertoire and a tendency to lean into difficulty. Selectively applied, this is a wonderful attitude to have towards learning programming. It is a counterproductive attitude to have towards your own codebase, though. In your own codebase, you have to flip your assumptions on their head and assume that if code is difficult to read, then more work should have been put into writing it.

[tombert]

> However, it also makes me wonder if this advantage for writing code might later on turn into a shortcoming for reading, i.e., understanding code - either someone else's or your own code six months later.

I understand your concern, if you're used to old-style PHP or Perl, which many people say is "write-only", because it's incredibly fast to create code, but a nightmare to maintain it.

That said, I think Clojure is a bit difference, since the entirety of the language is designed to make it easier to actually make abstractions. It's trivial to break things into smaller functions and compose them, it's easier to compose stream-based computations, and it's even not too hard to do a fairly compositional concurrent system once you've gotten used to core.async.

Very often when I write Clojure, I do a "quick and dirty" version of whatever I'm trying to do (giant functions, everything in one file, single-letter variable names, etc), just to get something working, and yet I still find it fairly straightforward to read, and also fairly straightforward to make non-gross later when I have more time. Most of the time refactoring really is as simple as "cut and paste".

EDIT, Cont'd:

There are definitely exceptions to this. Occasionally people new to the language will find out about macros and try and build a bunch of custom constructs that are incredibly hard to debug. There's definitely an art to figuring out the best time to use a macro (one that I still haven't mastered, if I'm being honest), because abusing that feature definitely can lead to problems of maintainability.

[wedesoft]

Clojure code is more dense, but once you stop trying to read as many LOC per minute as you would in other languages you are fine. Also the increased use of pure functions and immutable datastructures makes it easier to reason about code.

[kaba0]

I have always heard that Haskell has fewer LOC than something like C++. I was quite skeptical when someone told me, that if we count words instead, they are pretty comparable, but based on a few projects, it is absolutely true. I haven’t tested it regarding Clojure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that would be the case here as well (maybe somewhat less due to not having typenames?)

[stingraycharles]

You mean the steep learning curve, and lack of “starter pack” type of frameworks (for lack of a better description) is holding you back being more productive with Clojure?

I’ve been doing Clojure professionally for over 5 years now and it’s definitely a known issue that Clojure is very expert-friendly.

[demonshreder]

Getting a 'hang' of clojure as a language is quite easy, my colleague and I took only two weeks to jump into things. Even today, specific code development is order of times faster than we can do in Python.

However, lack of general 'all-purpose' libraries for numerous use cases means we have to implement that API or library in a general way (if only for our use case) then integrate it into the system.

This approach has worked quite well, creating our own template code (as everything is functional) helps reuse across many projects, however the initial investment of time/labour is something we would like to avoid for the sake of finishing the work fast.

[thu2111]

Are you counting Java libs as part of that ecosystem? It seems odd to describe the JVM as lacking all purpose libraries.

[demonshreder]

Java libs are definitely helpful, the time I mentioned includes wrapping Object oriented code into functions. This is easy if all that is required is one or two methods from the Java, however for more than immediate usage, it feels like building a library just because I need to use it.

In Python ecosystem, that labour already done by someone else, preferably who didn't start writing a library just to deliver code within a week.

One good thing about writing libraries in Clojure is the immense stability and composibility it offers. We can use the same code many years later without fearing breakage,a 'primitive' function can also be easily squeezed into numerous other functions which means reusability is quite high.

However, it is still an impediment for shops less than 5 devs.

[thu2111]

So the issue is, you want some sort of bindings rather than directly invoking the Java API. I'm curious, isn't that the sort of thing macros are supposedly good at - could the bindings not be auto generated to a large extent?

[cabite]

Being expert-friendly is not a problem per se for a language. What matters is the ratio between sufficient wage and productivity increase as compared to other languages. By "sufficient wage" I mean paying your experts enough so that they become less rare.

I wouldn't mind paying someone 3 times as much if its expertise in the given language means he can be 10x more productive than an average programmer in an average context. (I personally have measured a 30x incrase in productivity by switching from ruby to clojure and have observed the same phenomenon with other people).

[ccortes]

My experience has been the same. I do enjoy clojure very much but I've spent hours and even days just searching for examples on how to do X or Y and most of the sources are not beginner friendly at all.

If it wasn't because of my huge desire to use datomic I think I'd switch to some other language. On the plus side I've learned a lot.

[cabite]

As an advanced Clojure programmer I never look for examples on the web, which is not the case for other languages.

The reason behind this is that since Clojure is data-oriented, API interfaces are clear, minimal and self-documenting. With object orientation or anything that relies on datatypes, I always end up browsing docs looking for what's possible to do with the given list of methods. Never in Clojure.

[ccortes]

I didn't look for examples on how to code something, I looked for examples on how to engineer the code I wrote. Clojure just assumes you have the engineering knowledge and that you'll be able to figure on your own how to glue everything toghether and this exactly where I had the most trouble.

[fulafel]

Yep, I think the readily usable examples are so bountiful on the Python side because people tend to use it for smaller self contained things (more scripting, data ETL code, cli utilities). Plus the focus on Jupyter notebooks and teaching programming, often as a first programming language.

There are a bunch of grown up largish open source clojure apps up on github though and pretty good discussion forums with people bounce off ideas from on slack, zulip, the official forum, r/clojure etc. And consultancies if you have a budget.